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Old 08-13-2013, 04:13 PM   #31
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Bad wiring of Portable Power Panel


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Installation of appliances is covered in 422, not construction of appliances. Section V of Art. 422 may appear to require certain attributes, but cannot be construed as any sort of enforceable limitation beyond the scope encompassed by Art. 90. If the appliance is not "installed" in a structure, the NEC cannot control it.
as far as I can see art 90 doesn't say any thing about appliances.

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Old 08-13-2013, 04:14 PM   #32
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yes but the recp's are 15/20 amp not 30 amp.that is the point of my comments.also the 90* columb you fefer to,isn't that columb designed for de-rating purpes?
depends on what ur doing .... and what equipment your hooking up
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Old 08-13-2013, 04:18 PM   #33
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No, I'm saying this entire thing doesn't fall within the NEC's jurisdiction. It's not an "installation". It's not connected to the building, except by a plug. The NEC does not govern appliances.
what appliances?
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Old 08-13-2013, 04:21 PM   #34
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yes you cannot put a 15 amp or 20 amp outlet on a 30 circuit ..


210.21 Outlet Devices.

210.21(B)(3) Receptacle Ratings. Where connected to a branch circuit supplying two or more receptacles or outlets, receptacle ratings shall conform to the values listed in Table 210.21(B)(3), or, where rated higher than 50 amperes, the receptacle rating shall not be less than the branch-circuit rating.
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Old 08-13-2013, 04:24 PM   #35
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No, I'm saying this entire thing doesn't fall within the NEC's jurisdiction. It's not an "installation". It's not connected to the building, except by a plug. The NEC does not govern appliances.

90.2 Scope. (A) Covered. This Code covers the installation of electrical conductors, equipment, and raceways; signaling and communications conductors, equipment, and raceways; and optical fiber cables and raceways for the following:

(1) Public and private premises, including buildings, structures, mobile homes, recreational vehicles, and floating buildings

(2) Yards, lots, parking lots, carnivals, and industrial substations
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Old 08-14-2013, 02:16 PM   #36
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90.2 Scope. (A) Covered. This Code covers the installation of electrical conductors, equipment, and raceways; signaling and communications conductors, equipment, and raceways; and optical fiber cables and raceways for the following:

(1) Public and private premises, including buildings, structures, mobile homes, recreational vehicles, and floating buildings

(2) Yards, lots, parking lots, carnivals, and industrial substations
"This Code covers the INSTALLATION of electrical conductor..."

All of the language in 90.2 refers only to "installations". An installation in a yard, lot, parking lot, carnival, etc. would be covered. Not installed - not covered. Subsequent Articles appear to cover some things that are not "installed", but those provisions are outside the stated scope of the NEC as a whole.
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Old 08-14-2013, 02:47 PM   #37
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what a carnival ???

what is festoon lighting ???

don't stop at the first "comma" ...LOL
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Old 08-14-2013, 02:47 PM   #38
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Article 625 covers requirements for Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment, to include cord-and-plug connected EVSE. It purports to cover the attachment of an electric car charger to the electric grid. I have always wondered whether that would really be enforceable, given that a cord-and-plug portable EVSE (like Tesla's Universal Mobile Connector) is really just an appliance.
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Old 08-14-2013, 02:47 PM   #39
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try running an extention cord that is not safe ....or operate power tools on a job site ....LMAO
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Old 08-14-2013, 02:52 PM   #40
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90.1 Purpose. (A) Practical Safeguarding. The purpose of this Code is the practical safeguarding of persons and property from hazards arising from the use of electricity.

*****************


The National Electrical Code (NEC ) is prepared by the National Electrical Code Committee, which consists of a Technical Correlating Committee and 19 code-making panels. The code-making panels have specific subject responsibility within the Code. The scope of the National Electrical Code Committee is as follows:

This committee shall have primary responsibility for documents on minimizing the risk of electricity as a source of electric shock and as a potential ignition source of fires and explosions. It shall also be responsible for text to minimize the propagation of fire and explosions due to electrical installations.

In addition to its overall responsibility for the National Electrical Code, the Technical Correlating Committee is responsible for NFPA 70A, National Electrical Code Requirements for One- and Two-Family Dwellings, and for correlation of the following documents:

1. NFPA 70B, Recommended Practice for Electrical Equipment Maintenance

2. NFPA 70E , Standard for Electrical Safety in the Workplace

3. NFPA 73, Standard for Electrical Inspection for Existing Dwellings

4. NFPA 79, Electrical Standard for Industrial Machinery

5. NFPA 110, Standard for Emergency and Standby Power Systems

6. NFPA 111, Standard on Stored Electrical Energy Emergency and Standby Power Systems





*********************






(B) Adequacy. This Code contains provisions that are considered necessary for safety. Compliance therewith and proper maintenance results in an installation that is essentially free from hazard but not necessarily efficient, convenient, or adequate for good service or future expansion of electrical use.



***************************


Informational Note: Hazards often occur because of overloading of wiring systems by methods or usage not in conformity with this Code. This occurs because initial wiring did not provide for increases in the use of electricity. An initial adequate installation and reasonable provisions for system changes provide for future increases in the use of electricity.

Consideration should always be given to future expansion of the electrical system. Future expansion might be unlikely in some occupancies, but for others it is wise to plan an initial installation, comprised of service-entrance conductors and equipment, feeder conductors, and panelboards, that allows for future additions, alterations, or designs.



***************************************



(C) Intention. This Code is not intended as a design specification or an instruction manual for untrained persons.

******************************
I rest my case ......
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Old 08-14-2013, 03:43 PM   #41
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90.1 Purpose... I rest my case ......
The "purpose" section is completely separate from the definition of the SCOPE of the code. The scope of the code includes only "installations" - no matter how you choose to parse that comma in 90.2. If it's not an "installation", it's not within the scope of the NEC and is unenforceable.
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Old 08-14-2013, 04:52 PM   #42
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The "purpose" section is completely separate from the definition of the SCOPE of the code. The scope of the code includes only "installations" - no matter how you choose to parse that comma in 90.2. If it's not an "installation", it's not within the scope of the NEC and is unenforceable.


ok ...

maybe you missed my earlier post ...

this section covers PORTABLE SWITCH BOARDS ......

like the OP has shown ....

that you plug into an outlet or have lugs to hook your wires to ....

either way the SWITCH BOARDs ARE are NOT INSTALLED

and covered under the NEC
....


IV. Portable Switchboards on Stage

520.50 Road Show Connection Panel (A Type of Patch Panel).

520.51 Supply.

520.52 Overcurrent Protection for Branch Circuits.

520.53 Construction and Feeders.
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Old 08-14-2013, 05:00 PM   #43
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oh look ... @ 520.53 (P)

ie ...

(P) Qualified Personnel. The routing of portable supply conductors, the making and breaking of supply connectors and other supply connections, and the energization and de-energization of supply services shall be performed by qualified personnel, and portable switchboards shall be so marked, indicating this requirement in a permanent and conspicuous manner.

Exception: A portable switchboard shall be permitted to be connected to a permanently installed supply receptacle by other than qualified personnel, provided that the supply receptacle is protected for its current rating by an overcurrent device of not greater than 150 amperes, and where the receptacle, interconnection, and switchboard comply with all of the following: See related UL




*************************




the exception noted here would be the OP's panel less than 150 amps ...


now the NEC is not only telling you what is acceptable but also dictating WHO can do it .... and it is NOT INSTALLED !!!
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Old 08-14-2013, 05:49 PM   #44
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Yeah - Like I said earlier, the subsequent articles may purport to cover things other than "installations", but they are not enforceable with respect to those things because they are outside the scope of the code. If the code said that all flashlights must use D batteries, that would be unenforceable because it's outside the scope. So are portable devices that are not "installed" anywhere. 90.2 is a limitation which applies to the entirety of the NEC, just like the Constitution is a limitation that applies to all other laws the government may pass. A law is invalid if it's outside the scope of authority granted by the Constitution. An NEC rule is invalid if it's outside the scope of the code defined by 90.2.

I knew I could start a war with this one!
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Old 08-16-2013, 05:49 AM   #45
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a judge can rule on a law and basically change the law to his or her intepretation ..as we see every day ...

If it is in the code then its enforceable ... I can assure you that carnivals/outdoor events of the TEMP nature and the wiring is checked ...( meaning outdoor temp installations) and it is very very inforceable ...
permits are issued and inspected

my work for temp lighting and outlets need permit and inspections ...

each POCO has their own set of specs for temp power also .. the pole and how it is installed etc etc... all get inspected ...

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