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Old 11-23-2013, 09:56 AM   #31
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If you were on my crew and I caught you back-stabbing, you would be unemployed. Period.
When I was a second year apprentice, back in 1975, I was moved from commercial jobs to a condo-townhouse project. The JW I was working with showed me how to back-stab. I checked with other JWs on the job and across the board they were all doing it. "It's just faster," was the reason given when I asked why. Once the JW was happy I was doing it the "fast" way and wasn't watching me any longer, I went back to doing it the way I was originally taught.

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Old 11-23-2013, 11:45 AM   #32
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The pickiest of inspectors have insisted we use sta-kons for stranded wire if the receptacles aren't back-wired. But no sta-kons for solid wire and no using the receptacle for a feed thru. Most inspectors held to that rule. You must make up a tail to wire in the receptacle.
This is just sad, an inspector going beyond his job and justifying his actions by using his personal opinion, I really don't get why people go along with the god complex, they have a job to uphold, yet decide to make their own laws… It's a far cry from being picky, he is abusing his job title.

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Old 11-24-2013, 07:25 AM   #33
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This is just sad, an inspector going beyond his job and justifying his actions by using his personal opinion, I really don't get why people go along with the god complex, they have a job to uphold, yet decide to make their own lawsÖ It's a far cry from being picky, he is abusing his job title.
A lot of the inspectors I've dealt with came from my local and I know them personally. For most, changes they make in their local municipal code have to do with their own experience working as an electrician. It's their conscience, and not a god-complex, that compel them to do what they do.

The NEC is not an all-inclusive, flawless bible. It too is regularly updated and altered to reflect real world experiences and changes in technology. One could say the god-complex applies to the NEC folks. A code for an entire nation? Hmmmm...

When our own experiences tell us changes need to be made, we can't wait three years and hope the NEC covers them. That's why every municipality in my area has either written their own code or written amendments to the NEC. When there's a problem that needs to be fixed, they fix it.

While some inspectors let that power go to their head, I have found most just want to protect the people who will be using the system after the electricians are gone. They want to protect the user from shoddy workmanship, allow for future demands, and be ready for changes in technology. For the ultimate user, that's a good thing. And if that sta-kon makes for a better installation, the user will be the beneficiary.

As electricians, people rely on us to provide them with a reliable and workable installation. If someone comes along and finds a better way to provide that, I see nothing wrong with exploring the possibilities and making changes to improve what we provide.
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Old 11-24-2013, 09:03 AM   #34
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Pigtail a solid wire on...done.
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Answers based on the National Electric Code. Always check local amendments.


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Old 11-24-2013, 01:52 PM   #35
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A lot of the inspectors I've dealt with came from my local and I know them personally. For most, changes they make in their local municipal code have to do with their own experience working as an electrician. It's their conscience, and not a god-complex, that compel them to do what they do.

The NEC is not an all-inclusive, flawless bible. It too is regularly updated and altered to reflect real world experiences and changes in technology. One could say the god-complex applies to the NEC folks. A code for an entire nation? Hmmmm...
Ö
There is a group exercise that is used sometimes to show the potential difference between individual problem solving versus group problem solving. The exercise goes something like this: You are told that you are on an airplane with other individuals and that airplane has crashed in the desert. On board there are many items that can help with your survival. For example, a canteen with water, blankets, flashlight, compass, etc. Ė I really canít remember all the details.

Each individual in the group works alone and is asked to prioritize the items in a list, the top of the list is what they think is the most important for survival, the bottom of the list the least important. Then all the individuals get together in a single group, discuss the problem, and then come up with one single list for the group that they develop from a consensus.

It turns that the group list is always superior to any individual list.

Isnít it possible that when you think you are going to do something better than the NEC, that there is something you actually havenít considered? In other words, the NEC developers are getting a lot of information from many places and they should have much more information that any one individual, no matter how knowledgeable that individual is. You may think you are making an improvement but couldnít there be something you havenít considered and your improvement isnít so great after all, and maybe even flawed?
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Old 11-24-2013, 02:05 PM   #36
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Using that kind of thinking about future proofing every receptacle should be wired with #10 on an individual branch circuit just in case someone tries to run space heaters everywhere.

A national code is not a god complex. It is reasonable considering we are all using the same product to power our usages. Why is it not reasonable to continue using what works instead of letting each podunk re-invent the wheel? Would 18 gauge wiring for a 20 amp circuit be safe in some areas but not others?
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Old 11-25-2013, 07:50 AM   #37
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Many municipalities around here require either rigid conduit or concrete encased PVC for underground feeders. I know of one electrician locally who was killed when his shovel hit a buried cable. I've known of countless incidents where the direct burial cables have been hit, some with injuries and most considered close calls.

The NEC allows for direct burial cable. Why? Because it costs less to install. The NEC, like all codes, is a minimum standard. Some people don't feel comfortable installing to minimums. They want that little extra buffer. And sometimes their experience tells them it's needed.

The NEC is not isolated from the pressures of the outside world. If they created a code designed to keep personal injuries, deaths, fires, etc. as close as humanly possible to zero, people would be screaming bloody murder because of what it would cost them to meet that code. So no, I see no problem questioning the NEC and I see no problem making improvements to it.
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Old 11-25-2013, 09:30 AM   #38
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Does the NEC not require some protection for buried cable. In Ontario you must install some sort of protection, a pressure treated plank or concrete AND a warning tape above a buried cable.
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Old 11-25-2013, 10:08 AM   #39
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Does the NEC not require some protection for buried cable. In Ontario you must install some sort of protection, a pressure treated plank or concrete AND a warning tape above a buried cable.
not always. if it is deep enough, it is considered protected by the dirt itself. in general, most conductors can be 24" deep without additional protection. covering the conductors with 2" of concrete, placing in raceway, etc. all impact how deep it needs to be.

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Old 11-25-2013, 12:43 PM   #40
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... So no, I see no problem questioning the NEC and I see no problem making improvements to it.
Since Iím sure you are a good democratically minded American, I know you would certainly extend that same privilege to everyone.
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Old 11-25-2013, 01:37 PM   #41
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I think the protection is for future digging (note the tape requirement) not so much for protection from traffic above. There are depth requirements as well for conduit and bare cables.

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