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Old 01-20-2012, 08:06 PM   #46
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Automatic Closet Lights


@#*$&)(*#
Betterswich starts with a flash intro which has no abort.

After 5 minutes on site, I sent them the following:

Someone on DIYchatroom suggested I check you out.

I go to your site. Watch while a percentage logo gradually increases.

Page loads while I answer another email.

Click products.

Get to look at a bright spot racing around a square.

Oh. I have to select a particular type of product.

I get a picture.

Click on picture. Get bigger picture.

Where are the specs? Where are the installation directions.
Where is the discussion about suitability?

What power does it draw when not energised?

What is the R.O.I at 10 c/kwhr.

Why should I buy a product from you?

I'm underwhelmed.


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Old 01-20-2012, 09:08 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by sgbotsford View Post
And it's illegal, not to code. Why not?
Yes, quite illegal and not to code.
A line voltage switch needs to be in or mounted to, a box. The line voltage terminals and connections must also be in a box.
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Old 01-21-2012, 10:22 AM   #48
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Automatic Closet Lights


Sigh. Sometimes code is so bound with tradition. It makes sense with the typical switch with exposed terminals. But consider: A 'line switch' in a lamp cord is legal. You know the plastic oblong with a rocker switch on it. This ES15400 switch is legal in a stove, which I would argue has a more serious operating environment.

I could see some sense in rephrasing the code to be that "any exposed terminal must be in a box" "Any insulated terminal must be capable of withstanding a pull force of X pounds. Any wire terminal system NOT in a box must be build so that there is no shock hazard if the terminal wire is disconnected from the device.

This would enable a switch that either has some form of plug, or permanently wired leads.

Ultimately I don't care if it's legal. I'm in a jurisdiction that doesn't require building permits for renovations. I do care if it's safe. Is using an insulated spade lug connected round switch rated for the appropriate current and voltage outside of a metal box safe? If not, explain the hazard.
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Old 01-21-2012, 12:04 PM   #49
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This ES15400 switch is legal in a stove, which I would argue has a more serious operating environment.
Yeah, an environment conceived and designed by engineers, and one that is all metal with lots of open wiring with the housing. It is like one big electrical box.




Quote:
Originally Posted by sgbotsford View Post
Ultimately I don't care if it's legal. I'm in a jurisdiction that doesn't require building permits for renovations. I do care if it's safe. Is using an insulated spade lug connected round switch rated for the appropriate current and voltage outside of a metal box safe? If not, explain the hazard.
Then you sir are a fool. Codes are in place for safety. If you do it to code then it WILL be safe. Guaranteed. Ultimately the rest of us DO care if it is legal, ESPECIALLY with regard to advising others, which is what this board is all about.

If think that the code minimum is too strict for you, and that you know so much better, great....for you. Just DO NOT come here and try to justify your cavalier ways with regard to codes and safety rules. This will NOT fly, I assure you that.
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Old 01-21-2012, 12:42 PM   #50
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Automatic Closet Lights


Yes. Doing it to code is safe. An outside plug (say on a patio) has to be GFCI protected. Unless it is over 6 feet from the ground. Then you can use an ordinary plug. Makes lots of sense. Joe Blow's frayed cord hedge trimmer is less likely to zap him just because he's plugged in 6 feet up?

A kitchen plug has to be split between top and bottom on different circults. The justification for this is NOT safety, it's convenience. Heavy duty appliances tend to collect in one location. Having split outlets reduces the chance of tripping the breaker. BUT This means if you choose to do a reno you cannot use commercially available (and inexpensive) GCFI plugs. Fortunately I had an intelligent electrical inspector who said that my using TWO outlets at each location, each with a GCFI was acceptable.

A buried cable has to be so many inches below the surface -- unless protected by a board, in which case it's a bunch fewer inches. What possible protection will the board be in 20 years? When I had to replace the cable to my well, I ended up replacing a direct burrial line that was 12" below the surface with one taht was 30 inches below the surface AND I ran it through 1" PE pipe to try to protect it from the same pocket gophers that had broken the previous line.

Code does NOT require the outlets and breaker panels be labeled. But every time I work on a system, I label both ends of everything I work on -- the breaker panel with the region dealt with, the switch or outlet or fixture with the number of the breaker.

I've run into a lot of light switches wired into the neutral line, instead of the hot line. Which means that Joe Blow turns off the light to extract the broken off base of a light bulb. Zott! In some places this is contrary to code. In some places it's required by code. In some places code is silent.

I read and use the box fill tables. But really, I've never been able to get into a box the number of connections that the tables claim.

Our code says everything screwed to a single ground screw in the box. Must vary by jurisdiction since all the boxes sold here have two ground screws in them. One code says that an outlet's ground wire must be connected by a pig tail to the ground screw. Another says that it's ok to run the ground to the box screw then to the plug screw.

Code by itself doesn't make it safe. Doing it to code reduces a lot of the risks. But code is NOT the only safe way to do things. A lot of it makes sense. I use a book called "Alberta Code Simplified" which is basically residental and farm code with explanations. The author of the book admits some of the code is arbitrary and makes things neither easier nor safer, but cautions, "do it this way because the inspector will demand that it be done this way."

Anyway, back to my original question: What is the thinking behind the necessity of a box? Why is this plug unsafe. Please don't rant that it's not code. I know that. Explain to me what the risk is.
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Old 01-21-2012, 03:52 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sgbotsford View Post
Yes. Doing it to code is safe. An outside plug (say on a patio) has to be GFCI protected. Unless it is over 6 feet from the ground. Then you can use an ordinary plug. Makes lots of sense. Joe Blow's frayed cord hedge trimmer is less likely to zap him just because he's plugged in 6 feet up?
Check the code more closer on that part even with over 6 feet there is some local code addment which they will still requried RCD ( GFCI for ya ) and ya think 6 feet up above with frayed cord is less likely to zap ya ?? think again the electrique source will find all means to conduct it.

There is a reason why we have to use the RCD it don't matter if you are in North Americiane side or European side the rules still stand.


Quote:
A kitchen plug has to be split between top and bottom on different circults. The justification for this is NOT safety, it's convenience. Heavy duty appliances tend to collect in one location. Having split outlets reduces the chance of tripping the breaker. BUT This means if you choose to do a reno you cannot use commercially available (and inexpensive) GCFI plugs. Fortunately I had an intelligent electrical inspector who said that my using TWO outlets at each location, each with a GCFI was acceptable.
The Canada electrique code do allow the split recpetales as long it is on 15 amp with two pole RCD breaker that is clear cut on Canada code.

Most modern kitchen and remodels kitchen if they are wise with code it will have more than two circuits per codes requirement.


Quote:
A buried cable has to be so many inches below the surface -- unless protected by a board, in which case it's a bunch fewer inches. What possible protection will the board be in 20 years? When I had to replace the cable to my well, I ended up replacing a direct burrial line that was 12" below the surface with one taht was 30 inches below the surface AND I ran it through 1" PE pipe to try to protect it from the same pocket gophers that had broken the previous line.
The code will required X numbers of inches or mm depth for direct burial cable or in conduit the X numbers will varies a bit.


Quote:
Code does NOT require the outlets and breaker panels be labeled. But every time I work on a system, I label both ends of everything I work on -- the breaker panel with the region dealt with, the switch or outlet or fixture with the number of the breaker.
That fine you can mark it and have it labeled however it become a good habit to label all the circuits and it is in the code saying indentify the circuits and source as well if you have standby generator in there.

Quote:
I've run into a lot of light switches wired into the neutral line, instead of the hot line. Which means that Joe Blow turns off the light to extract the broken off base of a light bulb. Zott! In some places this is contrary to code. In some places it's required by code. In some places code is silent.
Yeah I have see it all the time when someone do not understand the electrique system that useally tell us there is a issue going on.

Now for the last two part what you say .,, Connries.,,, it is required by the codes and you should be up the speed with 2011 NEC code book that will get ya.

Quote:
I read and use the box fill tables. But really, I've never been able to get into a box the number of connections that the tables claim.
Which box fill tables you used ? The NEC or CEC ( Canada Electrique Code ) ?


Quote:
Our code says everything screwed to a single ground screw in the box. Must vary by jurisdiction since all the boxes sold here have two ground screws in them. One code says that an outlet's ground wire must be connected by a pig tail to the ground screw. Another says that it's ok to run the ground to the box screw then to the plug screw.
You may not reading the code right and the way you describe that is Canadian code verison which I can tell.,,


Quote:
Code by itself doesn't make it safe. Doing it to code reduces a lot of the risks. But code is NOT the only safe way to do things. A lot of it makes sense. I use a book called "Alberta Code Simplified" which is basically residental and farm code with explanations. The author of the book admits some of the code is arbitrary and makes things neither easier nor safer, but cautions, "do it this way because the inspector will demand that it be done this way."
We do have couple of Canandian electricians in this fourm and they will confirm this question with that part so they will know it.

Quote:
Anyway, back to my original question: What is the thinking behind the necessity of a box? Why is this plug unsafe. Please don't rant that it's not code. I know that. Explain to me what the risk is.
Very simple .,, for your own safety and when something go bad it will contain inside that box to prevent spread out fire and I have see some electrical box got damaged when something got loose or whatever it did happend in there.

The risk is very low if you did follow the codes due you are in Canada then you have to follow the Canadian codes end of the Connries .,,

Merci,
Marc
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Old 12-28-2012, 07:23 AM   #52
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i know of a very good product, you can use it on one door closets or two door, they have one with 15 minute delay and one with 60 minute delay

http://gofunctionalgreen.com/closetlightcontrol.html
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Old 12-28-2012, 07:24 AM   #53
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i know of a very good product, you can use it on one door closets or two door, they have one with 15 minute delay and one with 60 minute delay

http://gofunctionalgreen.com/closetlightcontrol.html

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