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Old 01-31-2011, 02:14 PM   #16
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Armored Cable replace?


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The first recep as in the first diagram would be code compliantly grounded. The downstream receps with the BX would of course not be compliantly grounded through BX sheating and should NOT be three prong receps unless fed from the load side of a GFCI at the first recep and then appropriately labeled "no equipment ground".
Ok, so I can use the romex from the panel to the first receptacle and make that a GFCI receptacle and then everything downstream can be the 3 pronged outlets. My house is old and there are three light switches wired into the outlets as well. There are 3 pronged outlets on the BX line now and they all say they are properly grounded with my tester. From what you are saying, they are not and I should add the GFCI outlet. Can the first receptacle on this circuit be wired like the diagram?
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Old 01-31-2011, 02:18 PM   #17
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Yes. If metallic, bond the box with a ground screw or clip.
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Old 01-31-2011, 03:32 PM   #18
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Armored Cable replace?


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So i should leave everything as is. From what you are saying, I cannot run a new romex NM cable from the panel to the 2nd floor to replace the current BX wire. Are there any options to replace that wire or no need?
no, just the opposite. It is a good thing to run the new NM, replacing the old BX. Since you are running it from the panel to some point upstairs, that means from that point you can run 3 wire circuits.

when you reach a point where you are not or cannot replace the BX, you cannot extend that portion of the circuit beyond the existing BX.

your drawing in #16 is perfect.

along with that, if you feed from that box with 3 wire nm, you can carry the egc along with that and use 3 prong receptacles utilizing the grounding connection as intended.

Last edited by nap; 01-31-2011 at 03:34 PM.
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Old 01-31-2011, 03:38 PM   #19
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Armored Cable replace?


Quote:
Originally Posted by brric View Post
The first recep as in the first diagram would be code compliantly grounded. The downstream receps with the BX would of course not be compliantly grounded through BX sheating and should NOT be three prong receps unless fed from the load side of a GFCI at the first recep and then appropriately labeled "no equipment ground".
yes. In the first pic, top recep, I was assuming the NM was not the in feed but extending the circuit.

that was my misunderstanding.
If you are bringing the egc from the panel, you can use the egc as long as you continue the 3 wire circuit.

In the bottom recep, it is not proper to bond the recep to the box as there is no legal egc to the box. you would have to protect that with a GFCI.
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Old 01-31-2011, 03:52 PM   #20
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yes. In the first pic, top recep, I was assuming the NM was not the in feed but extending the circuit.

that was my misunderstanding.
If you are bringing the egc from the panel, you can use the egc as long as you continue the 3 wire circuit.

In the bottom recep, it is not proper to bond the recep to the box as there is no legal egc to the box. you would have to protect that with a GFCI.
Ok. To clarify things in my head.

-So I can use the romex from the panel up to the second floor. (I only have access to replace that section of it right now)
-Romex to BX is ok to do, what is not ok to do is Romex to BX back to romex.
-The new romex line will feed a GFCI outlet connected as in the drawing in post #16.
-I can connect 3 prong outlets downstream from that GFCI a well as the light switch without modifying the existing BX wire


I do not understand what it means if the box is metallic bond it with a ground clip.
The box is metallic and the new romex line's gorund will be connected to the GFCI outlet. Does it need to be pigtailed to the box and the GFCI?

Last edited by zephed666; 01-31-2011 at 03:54 PM.
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Old 01-31-2011, 04:01 PM   #21
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Quote:
-So I can use the romex from the panel up to the second floor. (I only have access to replace that section of it right now)
yes

Quote:
-Romex to BX is ok to do, what is not ok to do is Romex to BX back to romex.
well... not to confuse you but you can BUT you cannot use the egc in the NM after the BX section. If you have metal boxes, it would ultimately be using the BX sheath for an egc which is not proper.

Quote:
-The new romex line will feed a GFCI outlet connected as in the drawing in post #16.
ok


Quote:
-I can connect 3 prong outlets downstream from that GFCI a well as the light switch without modifying the existing BX wire
but there is no need to connect the egc to those receps (see answer 2nd up)


Quote:
I do not understand what it means if the box is metallic bond it with a ground clip.
they make a little clip that you clip onto the side of the box. If you do not have a 10-32 threaded hole in the box, that was used in place of having to drill and tap one.


Quote:
The box is metallic and the new romex line's gorund will be connected to the GFCI outlet. Does it need to be pigtailed to the box and the GFCI?[
see the two questions above referring to the same issue.

I will say though that most people simply connect the egc's as they go along. The problem with that though is if you look back to post #4, you will be creating a system that could result in that situation. That is why I say to not connect the egc to anything beyond the section of BX.
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Old 01-31-2011, 04:12 PM   #22
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yes

well... not to confuse you but you can BUT you cannot use the egc in the NM after the BX section. If you have metal boxes, it would ultimately be using the BX sheath for an egc which is not proper.

ok


but there is no need to connect the egc to those receps (see answer 2nd up)


they make a little clip that you clip onto the side of the box. If you do not have a 10-32 threaded hole in the box, that was used in place of having to drill and tap one.


see the two questions above referring to the same issue.

I will say though that most people simply connect the egc's as they go along. The problem with that though is if you look back to post #4, you will be creating a system that could result in that situation. That is why I say to not connect the egc to anything beyond the section of BX.
Ok, I think I have it all now. My plan is to just replace the BX from the panel to the one outlet and leave the BX feeding from the outlet in place. The romex will be direct from the panel to the GFCI outlet. So every outlet connected to the GFCI downstream with the BX can be a 3 pronged outlet. I updated my drawing to ground the box to the romex. Is that the correct way or is there no need to pigtail the ground and just leave as is in post #16? And should all the receptacle downstream from the GFCI be grounded to the box then?

Again thanks for all the help!!!
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Last edited by zephed666; 01-31-2011 at 04:35 PM.
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Old 02-01-2011, 09:01 AM   #23
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Yes. If metallic, bond the box with a ground screw or clip.
Hi brric:

do you mean to clip to the box as in my post #22? I cannot bring the ground from the romex to the GFCI?

And should all other outlets downstream with the BX cable be grounded to the box in that fashion?

Thanks!
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Old 02-01-2011, 09:39 AM   #24
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Bond the metallic box as you have it shown in post #5.
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Old 02-01-2011, 09:49 AM   #25
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Bond the metallic box as you have it shown in post #5.

Thanks! Both those images are correct in post #5 then? the new romex should be bonded that way and the existing BX receptacles ahould be bonded how I drew it in the bottom image?
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Old 02-01-2011, 10:45 AM   #26
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No need to bond at the BX locations as the BX does not provide a code compliant grounding means. Bond at the first locatioon only where the new NM cable provides an equipment ground back to the panel.
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:11 AM   #27
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No need to bond at the BX locations as the BX does not provide a code compliant grounding means. Bond at the first locatioon only where the new NM cable provides an equipment ground back to the panel.
thanks so much!
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:16 AM   #28
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In all your diagrams you have the wires reversed on the receptacles. The white goes to the wide slot which has silver colored screws. The black goes to the brass colored screws.
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:19 AM   #29
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In all your diagrams you have the wires reversed on the receptacles. The white goes to the wide slot which has silver colored screws. The black goes to the brass colored screws.

thanks. the wires were just FPO. It was easier to draw that way at the time...
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Old 02-02-2011, 04:57 AM   #30
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Let me hijack this thread. Tho I will agree that the solution arrived at is by far a better solution. I would like to explore why the first two diagrams where not correct, because I say that they were. I know that BX has a bad rap for not handling fault current, but that it was designed to be used as such and that AC is still designed without a separate EGC today. Tho I have been wrong in the past so if you could supply a code reference or a thread that discuss the matter inn more depth.

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