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Old 07-31-2009, 04:48 PM   #46
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Arc Fault Break Tripping when any light switch turned on


Them, they did not provide any proof or even give me a call back in Feb when the issue came up, no image, no returned fixture, just the Electricians bill

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Old 07-31-2009, 05:19 PM   #47
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Arc Fault Break Tripping when any light switch turned on


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Originally Posted by L84DnR View Post
Thankyou...
but hopefully the original thread starter (whom seems to have vanished) has ACTUALLY taken some notice, & NOT fried himself inside his switchboard

(Me? I've been there "too" & ended UP with a very frazzled head, electrocution'ally THROWN_PHYSICALLY across a "freezing_works" floor one afternoon in ? 1983?)
To enhance your concern and hope for the safety of the "Original Thread Starter" who "Seems to have vanished". Let's go by the assumption that he/she doesn't have a high voltage Switchboard in the house. (No matter what)don't drink and Drive!!!
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Old 07-31-2009, 05:28 PM   #48
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Arc Fault Break Tripping when any light switch turned on


ALL the posters have been wonderful with the advice! It enhaces my point on another thread, that with such expert, professional advice, anyone who knows on which end to pick up a screwdriver --or a pair of plyers-- should get into DIY and take advantage of this site to take and offer advice. (No matter what Don't drink and Drive!!!
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Old 07-31-2009, 06:16 PM   #49
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Arc Fault Break Tripping when any light switch turned on




Happy to have found this thread***hoping to find a resolution to my problem with the arch fault devise issue for my client. HAPPY TO GIVE MY EXPERT ADVISE ON LIGHTING FIXTURES and or WELDING/FABRICATION**
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Old 08-01-2009, 10:47 PM   #50
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Arc Fault Break Tripping when any light switch turned on


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Happy to have found this thread***hoping to find a resolution to my problem with the arch fault devise issue for my client. HAPPY TO GIVE MY EXPERT ADVISE ON LIGHTING FIXTURES and or WELDING/FABRICATION**
You've come to the right place. But it's not ARCH faults that we're concerned
about here. Rather ARC, as in Spark (plug). Does anyone see the irony here?!
(No matter what) Don't drink and Drive!!!
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Old 11-15-2009, 04:02 PM   #51
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Arc Fault Break Tripping when any light switch turned on


Switches are not to be on an Arc Fault circuit as they produce arcing switching on/off. The purpose of an Arc Fault is to reduce/prevent a fire from a device plugged into the wall outlet that having furniture pushed up against the cord. Which is why this is in bedrooms.
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Old 11-15-2009, 05:33 PM   #52
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Arc Fault Break Tripping when any light switch turned on


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Originally Posted by Sparkykaboom View Post
Switches are not to be on an Arc Fault circuit as they produce arcing switching on/off. The purpose of an Arc Fault is to reduce/prevent a fire from a device plugged into the wall outlet that having furniture pushed up against the cord. Which is why this is in bedrooms.
Seems like the NEC 2008 considers lighting bedrooms & other areas are required to be AFCI protected

Outlet: A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment

Lighting Outlet: An outlet intended for the direct connection of a lampholder or luminaire

Quote:
The 2005 National Electrical Code mandated combination AFCIs for all 120-V, 15- and 20-A branch circuits that supply bedroom outlets in new homes starting January 1, 2008, which generally includes receptacle outlets, lighting outlets and smoke alarm outlets. The 2008 NEC expands the requirements for combination AFCIs beyond bedroom circuits to include other areas in a home, such as family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, closets and hallways
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Old 11-16-2009, 10:19 AM   #53
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Arc Fault Break Tripping when any light switch turned on


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Originally Posted by Sparkykaboom View Post
Switches are not to be on an Arc Fault circuit as they produce arcing switching on/off. The purpose of an Arc Fault is to reduce/prevent a fire from a device plugged into the wall outlet that having furniture pushed up against the cord. Which is why this is in bedrooms.
I remember this being preached as well. I stopped using lights altogether on the same circuits as receptacles because of this. Do you know what the CEC says for us?
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Old 11-19-2009, 12:44 AM   #54
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Arc Fault Break Tripping when any light switch turned on


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I remember this being preached as well. I stopped using lights altogether on the same circuits as receptacles because of this. Do you know what the CEC says for us?
The rule specifically states receptacles must be on a afci... which also implies no lighting as a switch produces an arc and would trip the afci breaker. You're rule of thumb of not putting lights on the same circuit as plugs is the same as mine... eliminate problems. Dislike opening a panel and seeing "lights & plugs" marking breakers 3-8 times. Like thanks really... not like anyone needs to know where in the house.


CEC 26-722 (f) Branch circuits that supply receptacles installed in sleeping facilities of a dwelling unit shall be protected by an arc-fault circuit interrupter; and
(g) for the purpose if Item (f); an "arc-fault circuit interrupter" means a device intended to provide protection from the effects of arc-faults by recognizing characteristics unique to arcing and functioning to de-energize the circuit when an arc-fault is detected.

32-110 (fire alarm section) smoke alarms/carbon monoxide detectors shall not be installed where a circuit is protected by GFCI or AFCI
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Old 11-19-2009, 02:09 AM   #55
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Arc Fault Break Tripping when any light switch turned on


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Originally Posted by Sparkykaboom View Post
The rule specifically states receptacles must be on a afci... which also implies no lighting as a switch produces an arc and would trip the afci breaker. You're rule of thumb of not putting lights on the same circuit as plugs is the same as mine... eliminate problems. Dislike opening a panel and seeing "lights & plugs" marking breakers 3-8 times. Like thanks really... not like anyone needs to know where in the house.


CEC 26-722 (f) Branch circuits that supply receptacles installed in sleeping facilities of a dwelling unit shall be protected by an arc-fault circuit interrupter; and
(g) for the purpose if Item (f); an "arc-fault circuit interrupter" means a device intended to provide protection from the effects of arc-faults by recognizing characteristics unique to arcing and functioning to de-energize the circuit when an arc-fault is detected.

32-110 (fire alarm section) smoke alarms/carbon monoxide detectors shall not be installed where a circuit is protected by GFCI or AFCI
Unfortunately your belief that switches and lights are not put on AFCI is misinformation.... but it's your story....

I'm also not sure how you stretch the cec code to say that light switches are not put on afci based on the code section you quote...I don't see how you can read it that way. I also don't see how you could ever have switched receptacles in your bedroom which is commonly done in both the USA and Canada. The normal operation of a switch will not create an arc that is of enough duration for the afci to detect it or identify its signature as a bad series or parallel arc...so it will not trip... unless the switch is defective. And BTW switches were one of the major reasons that AFCI came into being.... Faulty switches have been the cause of many bedroom fires. So you dang sure want them on AFCI....if you believe in afci.. many still do not and I might be one of them...

Anyway operation of a correctly working switch will not open an afci, this is common knowledge in the trade. There are many events that cause arcs on afci protected circuits Simply plugging in your vacuum sweeper may cause an arc if you forget and have it turned on. This will not trip your afci unless the arc lasts long enough to exceed the threshold of the afci parameters once it starts reading the arc signature.

There was a problem with nuisance tripping in the beginning of afci technology but this was because these early devices could only determine arc signatures for parallel arcs and could not detect a series arc as being bad. The technology has improved vastly to where afci's are now combination devices...meaning they detect and signature both series and parallel arcs. Once this was accomplished both the cec and the nec expanded the requirement of afci protected branch circuits to go outside sleeping areas.

FWIW... I'm not a fan of afci... but it is because of cost vs benefit not so much the issue with the devices tripping out unnecessarily.
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Old 11-19-2009, 07:40 PM   #56
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Arc Fault Break Tripping when any light switch turned on


It is not misinformation to Canadians and It's not my "story" that is what has been explained to me by Electrical Inspectors in my province. That is the interpretation that the Electrical Council decided in my province (talking with other jmen from across canada it seems that is the standard to NOT put lights on the afci circuits).
NEC & CEC do vary on many many codes & we can argue back & forth all day long on that point. The understanding is the standards in the US are different than Canadian standards. We do things differently in Canada. CEC Code. 26-722(f),(g) and 32-110(a)(ii)

I follow the 2009 CEC and in definitions receptacles are "one or more female contact devices, on the same yoke, installed at an outlet for connection of one or more attachment plugs".
There is a completely different definition for luminaries, lampholders.
Luminarie "a complete lighting unit designed to accommodate the lamp(s) and to connect the lamp(s) to circuit conductors"
Lampholder "a device constructed for the mechanical support of lamps and for connecting them to circuit conductors.

This being said Canadian code is bedroom receptacle are to be protected by an afci. NOT smokies, Co2, or lighting.

I have done many houses/condos, etc and I have yet to put a switched receptacle in a bedroom - the plugging in a lamp to light a room no so common where I'm from. Now my house has 1 in the master bedroom but it was also built in 1982. I've put many switched receptacles in the living room of houses/condos.

To use an afci outside of the bedroom I'm not against as it's a step above what code asks for... again not on lighting.

2009 CEC afci is stated in the 2 areas I stated previously from the code book - thus no mentioning of placing them outside of the bedroom. Arc-Flash (which is completely different) has been majorly overhauled.

Comment on NEC all you like, it's clear you are not up to CEC code again it's vastly different than NEC.

"the 2008 NEC now requires the technology to be installed in additional areas of the home, including dining rooms, living rooms, and other habitable areas" - this isn't CEC

The Evolution to Develop Arc Fault Technology

Research in the arc fault arena began in the late 1980s and early 1990s, when the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) identified a concern with residential fires of electrical origin. The CPSC discovered that one-third of electrical fires originated in the branch-circuit wiring systems of homes, which led to the first Code proposals to require AFCI protection.
The first requirement for AFCIs appeared in the 1999 NEC under Sec. 210.12. Subsequent NEC editions have further upgraded the requirements for its use. The 1999 edition rules, which became effective in 2002, required that dwelling unit bedrooms in new homes have AFCIs installed to protect only branch circuits that supply 125V, single-phase, 15A and 20A receptacle outlets.
After further research and analysis of the technology and its potential safety benefits, the 2002 edition updated Sec. 210.12 and expanded the requirement for AFCIs to include all bedroom circuits in new homes, including those that supply lighting fixtures, smoke alarms, and other equipment. Section 210.12 was again revised in 2005 to provide for a technology upgrade to the combination type of AFCIs. While previous generations of AFCIs detected parallel arcing, the combination AFCI could also detect series arcing.
The 2008 NEC further recognized the combination AFCI. In its attempt to take electrical safety a step further, it now requires that all new home construction install combination AFCIs in additional living areas in the home as well as bedrooms.


That article again is for the United States and NOT Canada. Please don't be spreading misinformation to Canadians by applying National Electrical Code vs the Canadian Electrical Code.
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Old 11-19-2009, 08:23 PM   #57
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Arc Fault Break Tripping when any light switch turned on


And this is why people need to fill out their location in their profile
It's the 1st question I usually ask if the info is not there
I sometimes will not reply until the person indicates where they are
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Old 11-20-2009, 12:17 AM   #58
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Arc Fault Break Tripping when any light switch turned on


I apologize if you felt I was insulting the Canadian code, that was not my intention. They do differ in many areas. In some cases I find the CEC superior to the NEC. I'm simply stating that your not showing in the CEC code where lights cannot be on afci. I have no intention of arguing CEC over NEC or one is better than the other. You guys have the CEC and it is very well respected even here in the USA.. I have no intention of disputing its worthiness... that would be rather stupid don't you think? I do have a brain though and unless you can show me how you go from a sub-section stating that branch circuits serving receptacles in bedrooms must be afci and that implies you can't afci lights I'm going to have trouble understanding.... What you say may very well be true but I would like to see something more definitive. The defintions are helpful but only if you can link them to the code articles about afci where they substantiate language.

Somewhere it should say lighting branch circuits are not to be on afci. Or that lights are not to be on branch circuits serving receptacles that are afci protected. I find it hard to believe that they would imply something this critical. Otherwise maybe this is a provincial requirement or maybe a common practice.

What I would really like to see is a device that sets off the smokies when the wife plugs 25 cords into receptacles to cook for the holidays....

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Old 11-20-2009, 12:48 AM   #59
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Arc Fault Break Tripping when any light switch turned on


"I'm simply stating that your not showing in the CEC code where lights cannot be on afci."
The answer as in the code book 26-722 (f) and (g) - I typed out (f) already.

"unless you can show me how you go from a sub-section stating that branch circuits serving receptacles in bedrooms must be afci and that implies you can't afci lights"
26-722 (f) and see Section 0 of the CEC for definitions of Receptacle (which is clearly stated in 26-722 (f) "branch circuits that supply receptacles installed in a sleeping facilities of a dwelling unit shall be protected by an afci" No where in that code does it say luminarie or lampholder. Referring back to Section 0 of the CEC a receptacle is something you plug into a female device - not a luminarie or lampholder. Therefore lighting (switching from a wall plate) is not a receptacle and bedroom lights are NOT to be on a afci.

If you want to see something more definitive I suggest you buy a CEC, talk to an electrical inspector in Canada, or take the advice of someone who's been working in the trade for a long time and has been told by the provincial and federal bodies that create our code book what the rules are and how they are to be interpreted. Or Better yet call the CSA and talk to one of the electrical staff and ask them your question.

"What you say may very well be true but I would like to see something more definitive. The defintions are helpful but only if you can link them to the code articles about afci where they substantiate language."
There seems to be a lack of understanding how the CEC works because it is all within the CEC of definitions and code. It's an easy book to follow for Canadians.

"Somewhere it should say lighting branch circuits are not to be on afci. Or that lights are not to be on branch circuits serving receptacles that are afci protected. I find it hard to believe that they would imply something this critical. Otherwise maybe this is a provincial requirement or maybe a common practice. "
Like I've said above so I'll repeat it again. When it says receptacles (a device you plug into thus not being a lamp/light/luminarie) in bedroom must be afci... in Canada you don't imply that you can put it on and afci because it just told you in black & white receptacles, receptacles, receptacles. Just like the cec states you can't put smoke alarm/detector, CO2 on with an afci circuit. If you were allowed luminaries, lights, lampholders on an afci it would state you can and not have 3 notes in the cec about afci's in the bedroom. Just like there is NO code change on having it anywhere else in the house. I understand and have read the NEC on the afci and what can go on it. The case is just not the same in Canada.

For the simple fact you keep saying the information I'm giving is wrong - that's arguing plain and simple. Offer your advice, give your opinion on a subject. But to tell someone who knows the codes of Canada inside and out that they don't know how to interpret their code is ignorant. Please do not address this point with me unless you come up with solid proof that says luminarie, lampholders, or lights can be put on an afci in Canada. A lot of products in the states are not certified for use in canada. There will be no changes to the cec until 2012.

peace out
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Old 11-20-2009, 02:37 AM   #60
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Arc Fault Break Tripping when any light switch turned on


Ok how about we set aside our bad start and we start over?

I am not a Canadian code expert so I'm asking you to help me understand if the CEC prohibits afci on bedroom lights. Maybe this is where I got off track and came across as saying that the CEC requires lights to be afci...

What I understand from your explanation is that rule 26-722(F)(G) says that only bedroom receptacles are required to be afci.... that's my interpretation. It says nothing about whether or not lights might also be on the same branch circuit or that they are prohibited on the branch circuit with the receptacles.

It is common in the USA to have both receptacles and lights on the same bedroom branch circuit.

So the question is... why are lights not on branch circuits that serve bedroom receptacles in Canada? Because very simply if I have to protect the entire branch circuit with an afci breaker then if lights are also on that branch circuit they would also be protected.


So I'm looking at rule 30-104 (A) that says lights are to be on 15 amp branch circuits only... I think that is what it is saying...

So from what I know about Canadian code you cannot put 15 amp receptacles on 20 amp branch circuits like you can in the USA.

If I am correctly interpreting that section of code then it could be that your receptacles circuits for bedrooms are 20 amp? And therefore this would prohibit lights from sharing the branch circuit with 20 amp receptacles...

So I must agree with you in that the CEC does not require lights to be afci protected... but.. I don't think it prohibits it....

My problem with the rule 26-722 (F)(G) is it says branch circuits serving receptacles to bedrooms must be afci protected but it does not say that lights would not also be on that branch circuit and therefore would inherit the afci protection because everything on the branch circuit is protected using a afci breaker..

So if lights are not to share bedroom receptacle branch circuits then there must be something that keeps this from happening. It could be that rule 30- 104(A) is why??

But if bedroom branch circuits can have 15 amp receptacles on 15 amp breakers in Canada then you could share with them with lighting circuits. And then the rule would include the lights if shared on the bedroom receptacle branch circuit.

So my question is does the CEC require 20 amp branch circuits for bedrooms? Because this is the only way that you could insure that lights were not also on the branch circuit in terms of code. Or they would have to have a rule....I can't find it...that states lights are not to share a branch circuit serving bedroom receptacles.

I hope I didn't make to much of a shambles of the CEC in my defense to prove what is correct with this afci thing.

I was incorrect about the CEC expanding the required use of AFCI outside the bedroom. It is now clear to me that is not the case. Sorry for that goof.

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