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-   -   another gfci question (http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/another-gfci-question-182972/)

bernie963 07-03-2013 08:56 AM

another gfci question
 
happy 4 th. lets remember what it is for.

helping a friend in an older house, circa early 50's. An electrician installed a new service, 200A homeline panel. I am going through it with the owner replacing outlets and switches as many are worn out. Have found many incorrect splices, no grounds on outlets, etc. fixing as we go.

problem. the kitchen has two near the sink outlets, ground faulted in the panel.
one works perfectly. the other does not. The ground on that circuit is open somewhere in the house. plan is to run a separate ground as we can not find the break. there is a light fixture abouve the sink powered off of this outlet through a switch. when it is turned on, the gfci in the panel trips. friend replaced light fixture, still same problem.

When I test the gfci with a plug in tester it will not trip. if I bootleg a temp ground from another circuit I can shut down the gfci with the tester.

help.

bernie

joecaption 07-03-2013 09:09 AM

100% sure you hooked up the line to the line and the load to the load side?
A GFI will work even with no ground attached.

MTN REMODEL LLC 07-03-2013 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bernie963 (Post 1210934)
happy 4 th. lets remember what it is for.

helping a friend in an older house, circa early 50's. An electrician installed a new service, 200A homeline panel. I am going through it with the owner replacing outlets and switches as many are worn out. Have found many incorrect splices, no grounds on outlets, etc. fixing as we go.

problem. the kitchen has two near the sink outlets, ground faulted in the panel. Bernie, are these the same circuit ... same GFI breaker.?
one works perfectly. the other does not.(I assume you mean it does not trip with the plug in tester as referenced in your next sentence) The ground on that circuit is open somewhere in the house. plan is to run a separate ground as we can not find the break.(Good idea to ground it, but your GFI should still be effective w/o the ground... it is just your plug-in tester that will not trip it without a ground) there is a light fixture abouve the sink powered off of this outlet through a switch. when it is turned on, the gfci in the panel trips. friend replaced light fixture, still same problem.(This appears to me to be a completely unrelated issue to above. It sounds like you have a current leak on your light loop... to chase down.)

When I test the gfci with a plug in tester it will not trip. if I bootleg a temp ground from another circuit I can shut down the gfci with the tester.(As referenced above, your plug-in tester just shorts your receptical to ground to test it. W/O a ground it does not functiion to trip. You tripping it to another ground is all normal and functioning as expected. Your GFI does not need a ground to function)

help.

bernie


Bernie... I am not a sparky, just a GC, but AFAIK... I believe I've given you corerct info with regard to the GFI breaker. I believe it functions just as a GFI receptical.

However, I do not have experience with GFI breakers.... I do not use them and do not believe in them....I use GFI receps.

I would ask a pro sparky, how do you tell whether a GFI breaker tripped because of a GFI leak or because of an overload??? That would be in reference to your light issue.

Best and Good luck

Philly Master 07-03-2013 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bernie963 (Post 1210934)
happy 4 th. lets remember what it is for.

helping a friend in an older house, circa early 50's. An electrician installed a new service, 200A homeline panel. I am going through it with the owner replacing outlets and switches as many are worn out. Have found many incorrect splices, no grounds on outlets, etc. fixing as we go.

problem. the kitchen has two near the sink outlets, ground faulted in the panel.
one works perfectly. the other does not. The ground on that circuit is open somewhere in the house. plan is to run a separate ground as we can not find the break. there is a light fixture abouve the sink powered off of this outlet through a switch. when it is turned on, the gfci in the panel trips. friend replaced light fixture, still same problem.

When I test the gfci with a plug in tester it will not trip. if I bootleg a temp ground from another circuit I can shut down the gfci with the tester.

help.

bernie




The 2 by the kit. Are they on the same circuit ?

Do u have gfi breaker then gfi receptacles ?

MTN REMODEL LLC 07-03-2013 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bernie963 (Post 1210934)
happy 4 th. lets remember what it is for.


problem. the kitchen has two near the sink outlets, ground faulted in the panel.



bernie

I took that to mean a GFI BREAKER...... maybe not:huh:

mm11 07-03-2013 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bernie963 (Post 1210934)
happy 4 th. lets remember what it is for.

helping a friend in an older house, circa early 50's. An electrician installed a new service, 200A homeline panel. I am going through it with the owner replacing outlets and switches as many are worn out. Have found many incorrect splices, no grounds on outlets, etc. fixing as we go.

problem. the kitchen has two near the sink outlets, ground faulted in the panel.
one works perfectly. the other does not. The ground on that circuit is open somewhere in the house. plan is to run a separate ground as we can not find the break. there is a light fixture abouve the sink powered off of this outlet through a switch. when it is turned on, the gfci in the panel trips. friend replaced light fixture, still same problem.

When I test the gfci with a plug in tester it will not trip. if I bootleg a temp ground from another circuit I can shut down the gfci with the tester.

help.

bernie

What are you doing to fix the lack of grounds?

rjniles 07-03-2013 12:13 PM

A GFCI receptacle or breaker will work without a ground. But the 3 light plug in testers will not trip the GFCI with the test button.

bernie963 07-03-2013 12:45 PM

thanks everybody.

to clairify, two panel mounted breakers, no outlet type gfci's.

one kitchen circuit w. gfci is fine. the other is the problem.

the problem one has no ground continuity back to the SEP. I understand that this is not needed for protection and why it will not trip w. tester.

I do believe the problem is in the light circuit loop. I did not mention that I did a continuity check on black white and ground from lamp to switch. No cross continuity between wires and all wires show good conduction. My feeling is a nail or screw might be the problem and moving the wires around 12-2 wg romex may open and close the problem.

I will be going back monday and "put eyes on the problem" again.

Nothing in this house will suprise me. So far I have added 4 Junction boxes to correct no wire nutted (only twisted) connections. and have found many non grounded outlets where there was an unconnected ground wire in the box.

again, thanks and happy 4th

bernie

joed 07-03-2013 01:31 PM

My guess would be somewhere on the light circuit you have a ground to neutral connection. This would trip a GFCI. Since they are on the same circuit it could be related to your not ground issue at the receptacle.

bernie963 07-03-2013 01:38 PM

Joed,

Negative. SEP to outlet--No ground

outlet to spst switch black hot wire

spst to lamp black wire (switched)

lamp to outlet white (neutral) wire.

my next try will be to hang a pigtail lamp and see what happens

thanks,

bernie

MTN REMODEL LLC 07-03-2013 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bernie963 (Post 1211046)
Joed,

Negative. SEP to outlet--No ground

outlet to spst switch black hot wire

spst to lamp black wire (switched)

lamp to outlet white (neutral) wire.

my next try will be to hang a pigtail lamp and see what happens

thanks,

bernie

Bernie... Strange wiring....feed into switch... lamp neutral fed from outlet

Sure it's the hots neutral,,, and someone did not tie in another branch neutral??? (sounds likely given the other hack stuff you've run into... hacks often think... white is white and will grab one from any circut)

Best

bernie963 07-03-2013 04:33 PM

Hmmm. That may be it

Monday may show it

Bernie

joed 07-03-2013 05:15 PM

Does the receptacle work or does it trip the gfci?

MTN REMODEL LLC 07-03-2013 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bernie963 (Post 1210934)
there is a light fixture abouve the sink powered off of this outlet through a switch. when it is turned on, the gfci in the panel trips. friend replaced light fixture, still same problem.

bernie

light trips GFI, recep trips when jumped to another ground so I assume yes.:wink:

joed 07-04-2013 12:20 PM

Not what I wanted know. I don't care if the GFCI test trips. What happens when a proper load such as a light, or mixer, etc. is plugged into the receptacle and powered on?


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