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Old 06-04-2009, 10:39 PM   #16
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Adding a Sub Panel for Transfer Switch


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I might have done things a little different, but overall, it seems compliant. The metal box doesn't need to be bonded by a wire unless there is a splice in it, but as it is painted metal, the nipple may not be making a good connection. It would be easy to add an open lug in there and land the largest ground on it.

Also, you will save yourself a headache later if you square those wires up in both panels. Right now they are banjo'd as the crow flies. A neat panel is safer and easier to work in. Zip ties are your friend.
I agree it needs a cleanup. My biggest worry is how to trace which neutral to move over to the sub panel. With all the clutter it will be difficult. Any suggestions?

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Old 06-04-2009, 10:52 PM   #17
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Adding a Sub Panel for Transfer Switch


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I agree it needs a cleanup. My biggest worry is how to trace which neutral to move over to the sub panel. With all the clutter it will be difficult. Any suggestions?
Man, honestly, since you are doing all that work any way, just disconnect everything and go from there. Pull all the wires off the ground and neutral bars, label or mark the wires on the breakers, and start fresh. Find the neutrals you need and get them out of the way, then re-terminate everything nice and neat. Then make your taps and tie everything up. You will be much more satisfied when you're done.
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Old 06-15-2009, 08:06 PM   #18
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Adding a Sub Panel for Transfer Switch


Well, I finished the sub panel over the weekend. Took a lot longer than I thought. The main panel is cluttered more than I would like but what can you say with 45 wire nuts. I attached a finshed. Next project will be the transfer switch. Thanks for the help.
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Old 08-17-2009, 06:41 PM   #19
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Adding a Sub Panel for Transfer Switch


I have just aquired a Kohler 12res generator and a Asco 165 100amp ATS . I also have a 200 amp service., I am not a electrician but have some elec. understanding, but would like more. My intent is to do the same install as yours, with the help of a elctrician friend. Have you installed the ATS yet ? I would like to hear and see the install, follow up with some pictures if possible. I would like to do the wiring and set up myself if possible with help of course. Your post is much appreciated. Thanks
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Old 08-23-2009, 08:58 AM   #20
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Adding a Sub Panel for Transfer Switch


I just finished the intall yesterday. Everything works great. I also installed a watt meter below the TS. You can see the current transformers in the photo of the TS.
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Old 08-23-2009, 11:15 AM   #21
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Adding a Sub Panel for Transfer Switch


Looks good I just have 2 things. Where is the power (120V) to the battery charger coming from? It looks like the gas line doesn't have a drip leg on it (IFGC 408.4, IRC G 2419.4)
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Old 08-23-2009, 05:27 PM   #22
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Adding a Sub Panel for Transfer Switch


The supply for the battery charger is from a 15amp breaker in the sub panel. The install gave two choises. 1) using taps from the ATS with a 5 amp fuse 2) using 15 amp breaker from panel that is hot when generator is active. My ATS did not have the taps so I picked option 2.

It seems drip legs are not used in this area. Houstons NG must be dry?
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Old 08-23-2009, 05:49 PM   #23
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Adding a Sub Panel for Transfer Switch


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I was thinking the same thing. 22 circuits can add up quick.
He just wants to have the capacity, not necessarily the actual usage on the ATS! (Now more than ever) Don't Drink and Drive!!!
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Old 08-23-2009, 06:11 PM   #24
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Adding a Sub Panel for Transfer Switch


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My ATS did not have the taps so I picked option 2.

It seems drip legs are not used in this area. Houstons NG must be dry?
Good deal, just wanted to check to make sure it was being served by generator power too. As far as the drip leg, I'm not sure, I just wanted to point it out.
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Old 08-23-2009, 06:25 PM   #25
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Adding a Sub Panel for Transfer Switch


Another issue is grounding the gen set. Currently I have it grounded with an EG back to the main panel. The gen set does have a ground lug on the outside cabinet but I did not use it. It seems the best way to protect the gen set is through the EG vs a ground rod (some say the controls of the gen set can be damaged easy with the direct connection to the ground rod). BTW, the main panel ground rod is located just a few feet from gen set so it would be very easy to connect but would be a circular connection. Would that cause any ground falts to go throuth the gen set and cause damage to the controls?

I hope this make sense.

My vote is to use the EG and no ground rod
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Old 08-24-2009, 12:28 AM   #26
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Adding a Sub Panel for Transfer Switch


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Another issue is grounding the gen set. Currently I have it grounded with an EG back to the main panel. The gen set does have a ground lug on the outside cabinet but I did not use it. It seems the best way to protect the gen set is through the EG vs a ground rod (some say the controls of the gen set can be damaged easy with the direct connection to the ground rod). BTW, the main panel ground rod is located just a few feet from gen set so it would be very easy to connect but would be a circular connection. Would that cause any ground faults to go through the gen set and cause damage to the controls?

I hope this make sense.

My vote is to use the EG and no ground rod
The key to determining if your generator needs to have a driven ground rod is at the transfer switch. If the neutral is not switched (as yours ) then the generator is not considered a separately derived system. In which case you are not required by code to drive a ground rod as it has a solid connection thru the transfer switch to the neutral of the dwellings electrical system and therefore would be effectively grounded to the the service equipment for the dwelling and the grounding electrode system of the dwelling.

There should be no neutral to case/ground bonding in your sustem or objectionable current will flow on the eg. This neutral to case bonding will occur only in the service equipment of the dwelling.

However if you just want to have the ground rod NEC 250.54 allows it as an auxiliary ground rod for equipment/generator. Remembering that the ground rod is in no way intended to be used to clear ground faults and has no effect on touch potentials or stray voltage. It's intention is strickly to provide an earth path for high voltage events like lightning to protect the generator. A ground should never be driven as the sole path for fault current. If fault current cannot find its way to the source over a very low impedance path to the generator or utility transformer... then circuits breakers cannot clear/trip and open the circuit.

Also the generator could have had instructions to bond the neutral and ground at the generator if the transfer switch was 3 pole switching the neutral and to drive a ground rod. As yours is with neutral not switched the neutral and ground should be separate at the generator to prevent a parallel path for neutral current.

My vote is to save yourself the labor it would serve no point to drive a ground rod with an unswitched neutral type transfer switch.
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Old 08-24-2009, 06:58 AM   #27
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Adding a Sub Panel for Transfer Switch


The case of the generator needs to be grounded. If you take a look on page 5 section 6 of your install manual, it shows this.
Installation manual
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Old 08-24-2009, 10:36 AM   #28
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Adding a Sub Panel for Transfer Switch


I don't think the generator needs to be grounded but you could install a ground rod and be in compliance with code. However the instructions do say install a ground rod as specified by local codes. I fail to see the point for local code to specify a ground rod for the system if it isn't separately derived.

This is an ongoing issue of controversy across the industry. Ground rods are to protect equipment/property from damage. He already has that without the ground rod at the generator. But I will agree that if local code says drive a rod then you must install it if you cannot get them to agree with you on what is required by code.

I'm glad you brought up the manual. That helps in clearing up what the manufacturer wants and is a good thing to consider to protect your warranty. Cause if local code wants one you better drive it and get some sleep that your warranty will be honored.

I still say it serves no substantial protection in this case.

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