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SS396 09-15-2007 09:02 AM

adding a ground to an ungrounded recepticle
 
I have a string of ungrounded outlets that are supplied by 2 wire nm with no ground. I would like to install grounded outlets on this circuit. Can I pick up the ground from another circuit that is nearby and add this to my existing ungrounded circuit? Can I pick up a ground from a nearby cold water pipe?
Thank You

buffalonymann 09-15-2007 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SS396 (Post 63086)
I have a string of ungrounded outlets that are supplied by 2 wire nm with no ground. I would like to install grounded outlets on this circuit. Can I pick up the ground from another circuit that is nearby and add this to my existing ungrounded circuit? Can I pick up a ground from a nearby cold water pipe?
Thank You

no and no

Speedy Petey 09-15-2007 09:07 AM

SS396, there are very few instance that you "pull" a ground from elsewhere. Your suggestions don't work.
The bottom line is that it is always better, and usually the same or less work, to simply run a new circuit.

buffalonymann 09-15-2007 09:11 AM

You can also buy GFCI and install it at the first receptacle, and use it to protect up to (6) more grounding receptacles

Speedy Petey 09-15-2007 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by buffalonymann (Post 63093)
You can also buy GFCI and install it at the first receptacle, and use it to protect up to (6) more grounding receptacles

Is the "six more" a local requirement? This is not an NEC limitation.

SS396 09-15-2007 09:19 AM

Thank You
 
Thank you both for the fast answer.

buffalonymann 09-15-2007 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speedy Petey (Post 63095)
Is the "six more" a local requirement? This is not an NEC limitation.

The NEC specifically requires all equipment to be used in accordance with the manufacturer specs. One can only protect the amount of additional receptacles specified by the manufacturer.

buffalonymann 09-15-2007 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SS396 (Post 63098)
Thank you both for the fast answer.

the GFCI scenerio creates a virtual ground, not a real ground. It must be wired correctly as well....be sure to have somebody who is competent do this

Speedy Petey 09-15-2007 01:15 PM

Yeah, 110.3(B), I know. That said, I have never seen an actual limitation put on the number of load side devices. There may be suggestions, which makes sense, but nothing concrete at to limits.


Quote:

the GFCI scenerio creates a virtual ground,
HUH???
A GFI does NOT "create" a ground, virtual or not. A GFI does NOT need a ground to function.
All it does is make an ungrounded circuit a bit safer. That's it.

Stubbie 09-15-2007 01:58 PM

It is possible that you can use a cold water pipe to get your equipment ground connection. It may or may not be easier than a new circuit. "IF"
you can get an equipment ground wire(s) ran to the water pipe within 5 feet of where it enters the house and that metal water pipe has been used as a grounding electrode with a grounding electrode conductor bonding it to the service neutral at the house main panel then you can do this. If this is viable and easier for you... install a junction box and bring a equipment ground wire from each receptacle to the jb install them all in a wirenut then run a single equipment ground to the water pipe as provided by 250.130 (c) and connect close to where the water pipe enters the home as mentioned.... with the appropriate clamp not a freakin hose clamp. If the grounding electrode conductor is close by then you can connect to it as an alternative if it is easier. But in general a new circuit is just as easy as Speedy mentioned.

Stubbie

buffalonymann 09-15-2007 02:18 PM

Stubbie writes...It is possible that you can use a cold water pipe to get your equipment ground connection. It may or may not be easier than a new circuit.

The NEC requires that any equipment used in an electrical circuit be listed for the purpose it is used. water pipes are not listed to carry fault currents, nor any other currents

buffalonymann 09-15-2007 02:33 PM

Speedy writes..."Yeah, 110.3(B), I know. That said, I have never seen an actual limitation put on the number of load side devices. There may be suggestions, which makes sense, but nothing concrete at to limits."


Leviton had a 6 receptacle limit. I went to Leviton website, but could not find a techincal bulletin.

P&S does not give a limit, but says 4 - 6 on their site.

whatever the manufactuer states is the limit

buffalonymann 09-15-2007 02:37 PM

Speedy writes..."HUH???
A GFI does NOT "create" a ground, virtual or not. A GFI does NOT need a ground to function.
All it does is make an ungrounded circuit a bit safer. That's it."


Your answer tells me that you don't know what I'm talking about.

Speedy Petey 09-15-2007 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by buffalonymann (Post 63135)
Stubbie writes...It is possible that you can use a cold water pipe to get your equipment ground connection. It may or may not be easier than a new circuit.

The NEC requires that any equipment used in an electrical circuit be listed for the purpose it is used. water pipes are not listed to carry fault currents, nor any other currents

Buffalo, Stubbie is absolutely correct.
I suggest you read 250.130(C).

Speedy Petey 09-15-2007 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by buffalonymann (Post 63139)
Your answer tells me that you don't know what I'm talking about.

Actually you stating this:

"the GFCI scenerio creates a virtual ground,"

suggest it is you that are unclear as to what's what.

If you can explain what a "virtual ground" is I'll recant.

I'm not really trying to cause trouble here. I just don't want some unsuspecting DIYer to come here and read a post like that and get the idea that there is ANY ground condition at all by installing a GFI on an ungrounded circuit.
Your post does suggest this.




BTW- Welcome to the site. :thumbsup:


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