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Old 03-12-2012, 01:55 AM   #1
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Adding Electrical Outlet Question


I posted this in the woodworking forum and I got a ton of rants so please spare me that please. I'm not an idiot and I intend on completely turning off all power before attempting anything.

So I've been researching adding a couple of electrical outlets to my garage (where the panel is). I want to run a new 120v outlet for the tablesaw (older craftsman 113 series) so that it is on it's own circuit and a 240v outlet for a grizzly G1029z2 DC on it's own circuit as well.

What amp 120 circuit should I add for my tablesaw? Will a standard 15a breaker be fine?

What amp 240 circuit should I add for my DC? The motor plate states 12 amps and the manual says the electrical is a minimum circuit size of 20. Should I just install a 20amp circuit or go with larger circuit?

Need recommendations on the gauge of wire to use on each circuit.

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Old 03-12-2012, 05:56 AM   #2
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I posted this in the woodworking forum and I got a ton of rants so please spare me that please. I'm not an idiot and I intend on completely turning off all power before attempting anything.
Does your home have a disconnect separate from the main panel? If not, you will not be able to "turn off all power" and you are inviting a trip to the burn unit.

Mark

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Old 03-12-2012, 06:12 AM   #3
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Adding Electrical Outlet Question


I suggest a 20 amp for the 120 line---12 guage wire--

The 240 line--I'll leave that for one of the licensed electricians--My shop 240 line is a 30 amp so I could run a saw or an arc welder from the same outlet.
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Old 03-12-2012, 06:29 AM   #4
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Adding Electrical Outlet Question


From the info given it sounds like two 20 amp circuits one wired for 120 and one for 240 should work for you. If the saw only has a three wire cord then 12-2 would work for both circuits.
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Old 03-12-2012, 07:35 AM   #5
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Adding Electrical Outlet Question


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Does your home have a disconnect separate from the main panel? If not, you will not be able to "turn off all power" and you are inviting a trip to the burn unit.

Mark
Seems the warning is a little extreme. The danger of arc flash in a 240 volt residential panel is pretty low.
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Old 03-12-2012, 08:55 AM   #6
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Seems the warning is a little extreme. The danger of arc flash in a 240 volt residential panel is pretty low.

Do you have a basis for that statement. As one who has survived a residential meter enclosure explosion, I can tell you that the danger is real. This misconception comes (in my opinion) from all the people who have started 120V arcs on circuits protected by circuit breakers. This is a lot different than the results you will get by bridging the mains in a hot 240V panel with a piece of #10 wire (or even worse, a steel tool). At that point, it is unlikely that your arc will trip the primary OCPD on the transformer and the arc will continue until the metal is gone.

The danger is real and people (friends of mine) have gone to the hospital for this mistake.

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Old 03-12-2012, 10:14 AM   #7
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Adding Electrical Outlet Question


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This is a lot different than the results you will get by bridging the mains in a hot 240V panel with a piece of #10 wire (or even worse, a steel tool). At that point, it is unlikely that your arc will trip the primary OCPD on the transformer and the arc will continue until the metal is gone.

The danger is real and people (friends of mine) have gone to the hospital for this mistake.

Mark
It's real and it's scary when it happens ,I know someone that dropped a screw inside a panel and the outcome was a violent ball of fire.
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Old 03-12-2012, 11:00 AM   #8
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Does your home have a disconnect separate from the main panel? If not, you will not be able to "turn off all power" and you are inviting a trip to the burn unit.

Mark
If I detect power at the panel after flipping the main switch I won't mess with it. My voltage detector light would be able to safely tell me if the panel was still hot right? Trust me I'm not trying to kill myself but it doesn't seem to be that difficult if I can safely turn the power off and I install the proper breaker, outlet, and wire right?
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Old 03-12-2012, 11:57 AM   #9
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Run a 12/2 w ground for the table saw, and a 12/3 w ground for the dust collector.
You will not use the white wire in the 12/3 but if things change and you needed a neutral it is there.

Turn the main breaker off, then check several places in your house for power.

Remember that the wires on top of the main breaker are still hot
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Old 03-12-2012, 12:07 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by adrianmcmanus79 View Post
If I detect power at the panel after flipping the main switch I won't mess with it. My voltage detector light would be able to safely tell me if the panel was still hot right? Trust me I'm not trying to kill myself but it doesn't seem to be that difficult if I can safely turn the power off and I install the proper breaker, outlet, and wire right?
I know I sound like the voice of doom, and that's probably not appropriate. Obviously, the chances of a serious arc accident are fairly low in a residential panel, but without understanding what the risk factors are, it's not easy to know the level of danger. I have seen cases where the act of just removing the panel cover has caused a flash because internal parts were broken and the cover was holding things in place. The bottom line is that there is no guarantee that you will even get to the point of checking for voltage without an incident.

The point of my original post was that unless you have an outside disconnect, then the most dangerous part of your panel (the unfused line side lugs) will be energized even if you throw the main to off. I just want to you to be aware of the hazard that is not obvious to all that open their panels.

Mark
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Old 03-12-2012, 12:19 PM   #11
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I know I sound like the voice of doom, and that's probably not appropriate. Obviously, the chances of a serious arc accident are fairly low in a residential panel, but without understanding what the risk factors are, it's not easy to know the level of danger. I have seen cases where the act of just removing the panel cover has caused a flash because internal parts were broken and the cover was holding things in place. The bottom line is that there is no guarantee that you will even get to the point of checking for voltage without an incident.

The point of my original post was that unless you have an outside disconnect, then the most dangerous part of your panel (the unfused line side lugs) will be energized even if you throw the main to off. I just want to you to be aware of the hazard that is not obvious to all that open their panels.

Mark
It's a good reminder for us DIY'ers. Thanks.
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Old 03-12-2012, 12:28 PM   #12
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The point of my original post was that unless you have an outside disconnect, then the most dangerous part of your panel (the unfused line side lugs) will be energized even if you throw the main to off.
True of any disconnect. Downstream from disconnect is shutoff but upstream is still ready to bite ya.
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Old 03-12-2012, 12:30 PM   #13
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Adding Electrical Outlet Question


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Originally Posted by busman View Post
I know I sound like the voice of doom, and that's probably not appropriate. Obviously, the chances of a serious arc accident are fairly low in a residential panel, but without understanding what the risk factors are, it's not easy to know the level of danger. I have seen cases where the act of just removing the panel cover has caused a flash because internal parts were broken and the cover was holding things in place. The bottom line is that there is no guarantee that you will even get to the point of checking for voltage without an incident.

The point of my original post was that unless you have an outside disconnect, then the most dangerous part of your panel (the unfused line side lugs) will be energized even if you throw the main to off. I just want to you to be aware of the hazard that is not obvious to all that open their panels.

Mark
Thank you for the heads up, I know you come from a good place with your words of caution. Assuming I can shut the power off completely with the main switch, then the only real danger would be the 2 leads coming into the panel right?
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Old 03-12-2012, 12:38 PM   #14
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Thank you for the heads up, I know you come from a good place with your words of caution. Assuming I can shut the power off completely with the main switch, then the only real danger would be the 2 leads coming into the panel right?

The conductors coming into the panel the lugs AND THE BUS BARS OF THE PANEL
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Adding Electrical Outlet Question-electrical-panel-repalcement.jpg  

Last edited by hammerlane; 03-12-2012 at 01:19 PM.
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Old 03-12-2012, 12:51 PM   #15
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Adding Electrical Outlet Question


found a better photo the lugs and the bus bars. Lugs will still be hot with main breaker off but bus bars will not.
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Last edited by hammerlane; 03-12-2012 at 01:19 PM.
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