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Old 04-27-2009, 02:13 PM   #16
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Adding 110V outlets to 220V line


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigs View Post
Also note on terminology that GFI sometimes refers to 30ma+ equipment ground fault protection, not 6ma personnel ground fault protection which is usually called GFCI. Probably not an issue but something to keep in mind for clarity sake.
Gigs, GFI and GFCI are generally interchangeable. What you describe is GFPE, Ground Fault Protection of Equipment. Some engineers may use GFI and GFCI differently, but among the field electricians, GFI is contextual, sometimes referring to a receptacle or breaker, and sometimes applied to GF protected service equipment.

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Old 04-27-2009, 07:16 PM   #17
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Adding 110V outlets to 220V line


Attached garage does make a difference. You don't need a new rod, but you do need a 4 wire feed to it so that you can keep the neutral and ground separate.
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Old 04-27-2009, 07:21 PM   #18
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Adding 110V outlets to 220V line


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Originally Posted by InPhase277 View Post
Gigs, GFI and GFCI are generally interchangeable. What you describe is GFPE, Ground Fault Protection of Equipment
You are right that they are used interchangeably often, but it seems that GFI=equipment (30ma) GFCI=personnel (6ma) is getting some traction.

http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarch...s~20030301.htm

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Dual listed AFCI/GFCI circuit breakers are designed to protect against ground faults of 6 mA or more, short circuits, overloads, and arcing line-to-neutral faults.

Dual listed AFCI/GFI circuit breakers are designed to protect against ground faults in excess of 30 mA, short circuits, overloads and arcing line-to-neutral faults.
So I think to avoid any confusion we should probably stop using GFI when we mean GFCI.
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Old 04-27-2009, 09:38 PM   #19
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Adding 110V outlets to 220V line


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The gfci should not be a problem.
The GFCI main will be a problem. A 120V load will be an unbalance ind it will trip.

Use a regular breaker at the source panel and install the 240v GFCI for the welder at the sub. Install separate GFCI protection for the 120V circuits also.

Atached garage doesn't need ground rods.

The white/neutral bus needs to be isolated from the enclosure. The ground bus needs to be attached to the enclosure.

A lot of small panels have buses on borh side which can be separated by removing a jumper piece that connects the two.

If not, just get a ground bus kit and screw it to the enclosure and remove any bonding jumper that may connect the neutral bus to the enclosure.
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Old 04-28-2009, 09:17 PM   #20
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Adding 110V outlets to 220V line


OK, everything works now. Here's my followup, in case someone else asks the same questions.

I installed the bus bar for the new, separate, ground. FYI, Home Depot and Lowes calls them "ground bars". And elsewhere on the net they're called grounding bars, buss bars, busbars, and bussbars. My 220V feed to the garage was already a 4-wire. The box's ground/neutral bar was not connected to the case. It came with a grounding screw that threads through the bar into the panel, in case you want to tie ground to the case. Obviously, I left this off.

I found conflicting information on using a GFCI as a main breaker to sub-panels. Some say OK, some say don't. I went with the easier/cheaper option of leaving the GFCI in as the upstream breaker. This is working fine. I'm going to try putting a 10K resistor between the 110V hot and ground to see if the GFCI trips, but I suspect it will.

220/221, I think you're mistaken on a 110V load unbalancing the GFCI. I think Gigs had it right when he said that the GFCI breaker compares all currents to the neutral. Technically, I believe it sums up the currents and expects zero, as the phases cancel each other out. I hooked up my compressor to one of the 110's and it cranked up just fine, while the welder was running and not.

So thanks all for the advice and education.

--Marc
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Old 04-28-2009, 09:23 PM   #21
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Adding 110V outlets to 220V line


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Originally Posted by 220/221 View Post
The GFCI main will be a problem. A 120V load will be an unbalance ind it will trip.
As long as it is a 120/240V GFCI breaker where the load neutral lands on the breaker, it will work just fine.
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Old 04-28-2009, 09:44 PM   #22
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Adding 110V outlets to 220V line


Since the GFCI breaker was originally installed on a 240V welder, I assumed it was a 240V GFCI breaker which compares current on both lines and no neutral was involved.

I haven't seen a 120/240 GFCI. If that's what he has I suppose it should wok.
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Old 04-28-2009, 10:02 PM   #23
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Adding 110V outlets to 220V line


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Originally Posted by 220/221 View Post
Since the GFCI breaker was originally installed on a 240V welder, I assumed it was a 240V GFCI breaker which compares current on both lines and no neutral was involved.

I haven't seen a 120/240 GFCI. If that's what he has I suppose it should wok.
Yup, that's what it was. And it was dumb luck I got the right type. I just thought I needed a GFCI, and so I got one off of eBay for about $40. It had the neutral pigtail and I didn't know the difference.

Once in a while I get the 50/50 chances right.
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Old 04-28-2009, 10:28 PM   #24
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Adding 110V outlets to 220V line


A 240V GFCI will have a white pigtail ....but yours also has a neutral lug?
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Old 04-28-2009, 11:12 PM   #25
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Adding 110V outlets to 220V line




Now you've seen one. :P
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Old 04-29-2009, 07:04 AM   #26
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Adding 110V outlets to 220V line


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Originally Posted by 220/221 View Post
A 240V GFCI will have a white pigtail ....but yours also has a neutral lug?
It's exactly as Gigs' picture, with a white pigtail that connects to the neutral bar. It also has the neutral lug for the downstream wire.

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