ACFI Question - Electrical - Page 3 - DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum


Go Back   DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum > Home Improvement > Electrical

CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY...IT'S FREE!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-16-2013, 05:13 PM   #31
E2 Electrician
 
stickboy1375's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Litchfield, CT
Posts: 5,163
Rewards Points: 2,118
Default

ACFI Question


Quote:
Originally Posted by herdfan View Post
I didn't assume that. Go back and read my original post. I accept that it is what the code requires, I was just looking for the why.

Notice that joed and rjniles actually answered the question I asked.

To follow up, are arcs in lighting fixtures that much of a problem?
I was just saying what the NEC requires and what an OUTLET actually is... nothing more.

Advertisement

stickboy1375 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2013, 05:23 PM   #32
JOATMON
 
ddawg16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: S. California
Posts: 7,657
Rewards Points: 2,626
Default

ACFI Question


Quote:
Originally Posted by stickboy1375 View Post
So, do you think the AFCI will detect this and trip?
That is actually a good question...

If I recall...there were symptoms leading up to the failure....this connection was the second in a series of 6 lights. Prior to the failure, they had some occasional flickering...

Based on that....I'm willing to bet that the AFCI would have detected it and tripped....

But the real kicker would be trying to find the location of the failure.

In this case, it was pretty obvious....one light worked, the rest did not.

You see the other can out because I was checking it to make sure it had a good connection.
__________________
Even if you are on the right track, you will still get run over if you just sit there.

My 2-Story Addition Build in Progress Link ... My Garage Build Link and My Jeep Build Link
ddawg16 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2013, 05:27 PM   #33
E2 Electrician
 
stickboy1375's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Litchfield, CT
Posts: 5,163
Rewards Points: 2,118
Default

ACFI Question


Quote:
Originally Posted by ddawg16 View Post
That is actually a good question...

If I recall...there were symptoms leading up to the failure....this connection was the second in a series of 6 lights. Prior to the failure, they had some occasional flickering...

Based on that....I'm willing to bet that the AFCI would have detected it and tripped....

But the real kicker would be trying to find the location of the failure.

In this case, it was pretty obvious....one light worked, the rest did not.

You see the other can out because I was checking it to make sure it had a good connection.

I only ask because I seriously dont know what AFCI's look for.... to me, a bad connection like a wago seems like a resistive load, so not sure how a AFCI determines the difference... It's beyond my knowledge, but someone is making a whole lot of money making these devices required and just selling them as Arc fault detectors yet the public really has no ****ing clue as to what they actually do....
stickboy1375 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2013, 05:48 PM   #34
JOATMON
 
ddawg16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: S. California
Posts: 7,657
Rewards Points: 2,626
Default

ACFI Question


Quote:
Originally Posted by stickboy1375 View Post
I only ask because I seriously dont know what AFCI's look for.... to me, a bad connection like a wago seems like a resistive load, so not sure how a AFCI determines the difference... It's beyond my knowledge, but someone is making a whole lot of money making these devices required and just selling them as Arc fault detectors yet the public really has no ****ing clue as to what they actually do....
They actually look for high freq current surges....

If you were to put a sensitive current sensing device in line with a connection that was arcing, you would get a lot of spikes at a higher freq than the line freq. These 'spikes' are somewhat easy to separate from normal noise by using a high pass filter.

Here is a good link about arc's.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_arc

When an arc happens, the current rise is significantly faster than then 60hz of the line. In fact, if you look at an arc on an oscope, you will most likely see several spikes in a single 60hz cycle.

And AFCI's in general...

Quote:
An Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter (AFCI) is a circuit breaker designed to prevent fires by detecting an unintended electrical arc and disconnecting the power before the arc starts a fire. An AFCI must distinguish between a harmless arc that occurs incidental to normal operation of switches, plugs and brushed motors and an undesirable arc that can occur, for example, in a lamp cord that has a broken conductor in the cord.
Arc faults in a home are one of the leading causes for electrical wiring fires.[1] Each year in the United States, over 40,000 fires are attributed to home electrical wiring. These fires result in over 350 deaths and over 1,400 injuries each year.[2]
Conventional circuit breakers only respond to overloads and short circuits; so they do not protect against arcing conditions that produce erratic, and often reduced current. An AFCI is selective so that normal arcs do not cause it to trip. The AFCI circuitry continuously monitors the current and discriminates between normal and unwanted arcing conditions. Once an unwanted arcing condition is detected, the AFCI opens its internal contacts, thus de-energizing the circuit and reducing the potential for a fire to occur. An AFCI should not trip during normal arcing conditions, which can occur when a switch is opened or a plug is pulled from a receptacle.[3]
AFCIs resemble a GFCI/RCD (Ground-Fault Circuit Interrupt/Residual-Current Device) breaker in that they both have a test button although each has a different function. GFCIs and RCDs are designed to protect against electrical shock of a person, while AFCIs are primarily designed to protect against electrical fires caused by arcing. Some outlets must be protected by both a GFCI and an AFCI, such as an outlet near a wet bar in a family room.
Hence....the issue with arc faults is that they can produce enough heat to start a fire but not exceed the current limit of the breaker...
__________________
Even if you are on the right track, you will still get run over if you just sit there.

My 2-Story Addition Build in Progress Link ... My Garage Build Link and My Jeep Build Link
ddawg16 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2013, 06:18 PM   #35
Member
 
Oso954's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Northern Calif.
Posts: 1,813
Rewards Points: 1,506
Default

ACFI Question


This is an older article on arc fault detection, but it may help.
http://www.schneider-electric.us/doc...-iaei-news.pdf
Oso954 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Oso954 For This Useful Post:
ddawg16 (09-16-2013)
Old 09-16-2013, 06:24 PM   #36
JOATMON
 
ddawg16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: S. California
Posts: 7,657
Rewards Points: 2,626
Default

ACFI Question


Quote:
Originally Posted by Oso954 View Post
This is an older article on arc fault detection, but it may help.
http://www.schneider-electric.us/doc...-iaei-news.pdf
Thanks Oso...that is actually the reference I was looking for....it has the oscope images that I think helps illustrate the issues with arc's.....

Advertisement

__________________
Even if you are on the right track, you will still get run over if you just sit there.

My 2-Story Addition Build in Progress Link ... My Garage Build Link and My Jeep Build Link
ddawg16 is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to ddawg16 For This Useful Post:
Oso954 (09-17-2013)
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Another Aluminum Siding prep question aribert Painting 6 03-14-2013 02:48 PM
DRIcore question trailblazer1229 Flooring 0 02-24-2010 10:25 AM
3 Phase meter socket question a320200 Electrical 4 12-11-2009 01:45 AM
An unasked question is the only dumb question jackie treehorn Kitchen & Bath Remodeling 1 09-20-2009 09:24 PM
Basement Renovation Question KUIPORNG Remodeling 234 08-26-2008 09:19 AM




Top of Page | View New Posts