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Old 05-30-2012, 04:19 PM   #31
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Above ground pool #8 bonding wire


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Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
If this doomsday scenario is even possible, then how is it that hundreds of people a year are not killed by this, considering that there are hundreds of thousands of pools wired exactly this way???
Their wet skin/body resistance is higher than 4/.02 = 200 ohms?


With Mr. Holt's video, the thing seems to be, "Should you bond to metal that is insulated from ground, to the pool metal which is grounded?"

If all metal is at the same potential, then no shock ever because no current flow.

If you touch a piece of metal that is insulated from all other conductors, then no shock ever because no current flow.

If future work by clueless people working for PoCo or otherwise changes this grounding situation then you may have a problem.

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Old 05-30-2012, 04:22 PM   #32
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Above ground pool #8 bonding wire


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If this doomsday scenario is even possible, then how is it that hundreds of people a year are not killed by this, considering that there are hundreds of thousands of pools wired exactly this way???
Because of perimeter bonding, why do you think we do it?

So when we step out of a pool, while one foot is in the energized water, were not touching something at "ZERO" volts... causing a shock hazard... not everyone understands what bonding is actually doing... We are actually "ENERGIZING" areas around a pool.

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Old 05-30-2012, 04:30 PM   #33
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Above ground pool #8 bonding wire





Here is the updated photo. Notice the dates on the photos.
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Old 05-30-2012, 04:30 PM   #34
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Above ground pool #8 bonding wire


That is why the water is now required to be bonded also.
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Old 05-30-2012, 04:44 PM   #35
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Above ground pool #8 bonding wire


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That is why the water is now required to be bonded also.
The water was always required, this just made it clear. it was bonded from either metal ladders, light fixtures, etc... as materials change, so do the codes.
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Old 05-30-2012, 04:51 PM   #36
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Above ground pool #8 bonding wire


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Because of perimeter bonding, why do you think we do it?

So when we step out of a pool, while one foot is in the energized water, were not touching something at "ZERO" volts... causing a shock hazard... not everyone understands what bonding is actually doing... We are actually "ENERGIZING" areas around a pool.
OK, so if the water is bonded to the same grid as the walk surface there is no potential.
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Old 05-30-2012, 04:53 PM   #37
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Above ground pool #8 bonding wire


I see you just watched this new video. LOL
Did you feel this way last week???

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Mike Holt who publishes these drawings even concludes the door frame and window should not be bonded. He had a good chuckle when discussing this very picture.
I'm not saying it isn't possible, what I am saying is how can you and Mr. Holt remove door and window frames from 680.26(B)(7) (@ 1:02:02 in the video)???
HOW is this ANY different than the fence, antenna, etc???

Sorry, I DO NOT agree with you or Mr. Holt in this case.
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Old 05-30-2012, 04:54 PM   #38
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Above ground pool #8 bonding wire


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OK, so if the water is bonded to the same grid as the walk surface there is no potential.
Yes. Also, if someone just happened to throw a 2 wire appliance with a 2 wire cord, the GFCI will trip as well. That one is stretching it, but hey, people do weird stuff.
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Old 05-30-2012, 04:54 PM   #39
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Above ground pool #8 bonding wire


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Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
I see you just watched this new video. LOL
Did you feel this way last week???


I'm not saying it isn't possible, what I am saying is how can you and Mr. Holt remove door and window frames from 680.26(B)(7) (@ 1:02:02 in the video)???
HOW is this ANY different than the fence, antenna, etc???

Sorry, I DO NOT agree with you or Mr. Holt in this case.

Why would you want it energized? That is my question. I didn't just watch this video, but i do seek knowledge to things I don't understand.

And i found this video very educational vs what you would learn in the trade, or on an online forum.

Last edited by stickboy1375; 05-30-2012 at 04:57 PM.
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Old 05-30-2012, 05:00 PM   #40
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Above ground pool #8 bonding wire


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Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post


I'm not saying it isn't possible, what I am saying is how can you and Mr. Holt remove door and window frames from 680.26(B)(7) (@ 1:02:02 in the video)???
HOW is this ANY different than the fence, antenna, etc???

Because, how are you going to get shocked by a door frame while entering or exiting a pool?

personally Speedy, I have never done a pool that close to a structure to begin with, so I'm not really worried about this code section, but i can tell you that I will never bond a window, door or gutter either.

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Old 05-30-2012, 05:05 PM   #41
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Above ground pool #8 bonding wire


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Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
I see you just watched this new video. LOL
Did you feel this way last week???
Would you ever bond a window or door frame if you never saw the 2004 picture vs the 2006?
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Old 05-30-2012, 05:18 PM   #42
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Above ground pool #8 bonding wire


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Why would you want it energized? That is my question. I didn't just watch this video, but i do seek knowledge to things I don't understand.
Well I though so as you were parroting exactly what Holt was saying.

You obviously do not want it energized. But those things will be NO MORE energized than the fence, antenna, ladder, handrail, etc.


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Because, how are you going to get shocked by a door frame while entering or exiting a pool?
I guess ANYTHING'S possible. If the frames are bonded then they are at the same potential as the ground and any other metal in the area. Somebody soaking wet could be holding the chain link fence and grab the door frame at the same time.

In Mr. Holt's own example, the lifeguard grabbed both rails, one was bonded, one was not. EXACT same situation.


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Would you ever bond a window or door frame if you never saw the 2004 picture vs the 2006?
What do the pics have to do with it?
If it was code, yes. Those pictures are not in my code book.
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Old 05-30-2012, 05:26 PM   #43
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Above ground pool #8 bonding wire


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Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
Well I though so as you were parroting exactly what Holt was saying.


I've watched that video about 6 times, it just grabs my attention to what IS going on, and i wasn't trying to make myself look smarter by my comments, but they make people think what they are doing rather than that's what I do, I can't stand the latter...

In general, I hate how pride becomes an issue with being wrong, personally, if Im wrong I want to know, but in a nice way. The thread about dead ended wires being in a wall was tasteless and lets just say, less to be desired for.

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Old 05-30-2012, 05:42 PM   #44
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Above ground pool #8 bonding wire


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In general, I hate how pride becomes an issue with being wrong, personally, if Im wrong I want to know, but in a nice way. The thread about dead ended wires being in a wall was tasteless and lets just say, less to be desired for.
Thankfully I did not even see that thread until after it was locked.
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Old 05-30-2012, 06:18 PM   #45
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Above ground pool #8 bonding wire


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OK, so if the water is bonded to the same grid as the walk surface there is no potential.
There still may be, although probably nobody ever died from it.

IIRC fresh water in the pool is less conductive than concrete and so you've got ground currents flowing through resistances of different values and so you almost certainly will have potential differences.
It is sort of a three dimensional electrical network with excellent conductors, and semiconductors (water, concrete, earth, human bodies).

If anybody has a pool and a voltmeter I'd like to see what kind of voodoo voltages you get. >2v is probably troublesome.

In the US, less than 5000 fatalities per year is "down in the noise" and elec. fatalities are about 1700/yr. Public policy and NEC policy is about making these kinds of tradeoffs.

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