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Old 02-15-2010, 07:36 AM   #1
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90 amp electric car charger! The future...


I read a story about electric cars this morning which peaked my curiosity!

It seems that the "wiz bang" (fastest) charger for the new batch of electric cars on the way may require a 90 amp circuit (70 amps actual)! And this would charge the vehicle in 4 hours.

Let's see...

90 amps for dad's car.
90 amps for mom's car.
90 amps for the son's car.
90 amps for the daughter's car.
???

Needless to say, this could get to be interesting so far as the size of main electric panels go and the demand on the electric grid.

Pacific Gas and Electric is looking at "smart meters" and utility controlled charging of electric vehicles called "vehicle-to-grid" (V2G) technology...
http://www.pge.com/about/news/mediar...7/070912.shtml

Here is the 90 amp circuit charger (70 amps actual) installation manual...
(Specifications: adobe reader page 9 / document page 13)
http://www.teslamotors.com/electric/...stallation.pdf

Then these vehicles can also be charged with regular 15 amp outlets, or a 240 volt "universal charger" which comes with adapters for any 240 volt outlet, but would be the most "happy" on a 50 amp outlet...

Different chargers...
http://www.teslamotors.com/electric/charging.php

Universal 240 volt...
http://www.teslamotors.com/electric/...o_sheet_uc.pdf

Vehicle-to-grid. This says the car can provide electricity to the electric company! Interesting...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-to-grid

Today's story in the NY times about this...
(Cities Prepare for Life With the Electric Car)
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/15/bu...5electric.html

Last edited by Billy_Bob; 02-15-2010 at 07:38 AM.
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Old 02-15-2010, 09:42 AM   #2
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90 amp electric car charger! The future...


  • Park your car - plug into the parking meter - swipe your credit card - go shop, come back to a charged up car.
  • Park your car at work, plug it into a company supplied power source, the charge is deducted from your paycheck.
  • When at home charge your car at night when your elecric rates will be cheaper.
  • Install a solar array to create and store electriclty to charge your car.
  • Lots more senarios to come.
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Old 02-15-2010, 09:48 AM   #3
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90 amp electric car charger! The future...


1) Fill up car at gas station.
2) Drive car to work.
3) Drive to store afterwork, pick up groceries.
4) Drive home and park car in garage, spend time with family, go to bed.
5) Get up in morning start car and drive to work.
6) Repeat as necessary.


But yes, this would definitely change the services entering people's homes. Interesting links.
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Old 02-15-2010, 11:15 AM   #4
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90 amp electric car charger! The future...


Speaking of parking...

I poked around looking for how many spaces parking garages have.

I saw some around 400 spaces, 500 spaces, 1000 spaces, and one was 2000 spaces...

So let's take a 500 space parking garage....

Can you imagine each space having a car charger on a 90 amp circuit?

Then the actual amperage used on that circuit is 70 amps...

So how about a 45000 amp main panel with 1000 slots (double breaker) for that parking garage?

Seriously, how could this be done? The 90/70 amp charger can be connected to 3 phase per the instruction manual above...
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Old 02-15-2010, 12:48 PM   #5
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90 amp electric car charger! The future...


I would love to see electric cars be more mainstream. Electricity is way cheaper then gasoline.
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Old 02-15-2010, 02:25 PM   #6
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90 amp electric car charger! The future...


The parking lot will probably not equip all the spaces with power outlets and will also have a higher price for the recharge compared with recharging at home.

Right now there is no way the power company can control when people charge their cars since there are a lot of 200 amp. home electrical services already in place. But the power company might put in a higher kilowatt hour price if you go over so many KWH in a month. Later they may let you retrofit your service with a lower KWH price off peak second meter service for the car.
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Old 02-15-2010, 04:23 PM   #7
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90 amp electric car charger! The future...


"When at home charge your car at night when your electric rates will be cheaper."
With all due respect "vsheetz": How would a local POCO know the time of day which you would be charging these batteries? And: How can a POCO charge different rates for different times within a twenty-four (24) hour cycle.
This is new information to me as my POCO charges a flat rate per kilowatt/hour used. Thanks, David
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Old 02-15-2010, 05:17 PM   #8
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90 amp electric car charger! The future...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Thurman View Post
"When at home charge your car at night when your electric rates will be cheaper."
With all due respect "vsheetz": How would a local POCO know the time of day which you would be charging these batteries? And: How can a POCO charge different rates for different times within a twenty-four (24) hour cycle.
This is new information to me as my POCO charges a flat rate per kilowatt/hour used. Thanks, David
VSheets lives in Southern California. Most of their meters use newer technology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zellweger_off-peak
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Old 02-15-2010, 05:39 PM   #9
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90 amp electric car charger! The future...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Squirrel View Post
I would love to see electric cars be more mainstream. Electricity is way cheaper then gasoline.
When demand goes up, so does price...wouldn't this hold true for electricity?

It also has to be enough cheaper to account for the more expensive car.
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Old 02-15-2010, 07:32 PM   #10
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90 amp electric car charger! The future...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Thurman View Post
"When at home charge your car at night when your electric rates will be cheaper."
With all due respect "vsheetz": How would a local POCO know the time of day which you would be charging these batteries? And: How can a POCO charge different rates for different times within a twenty-four (24) hour cycle.
This is new information to me as my POCO charges a flat rate per kilowatt/hour used. Thanks, David
I have been on a peak/off peak program for over 12 years now. Electricity is cheaper for me after 8PM, and before 7AM. My water heater is controlled by a timer switch that only operates it during off-peak hours.

The problem that many folks don't realize here is that charging an electric car's batteries is not going to be cheap. It takes a LOT of kWh's of juice to recharge a bank of spent batteries. Your normal, plug-in type battery charger that may be hanging around your garage ain't going to cut it here.

As noted in this thread, a good charger that can recharge a vehicle will require a 90 Amp single phase circuit -- which most homes do not have readily available. FWIW, many industrial electric forklift battery chargers require a 60 Amp 3 phase circuit -- which is comparable to the single phase 90 Amp circuit that is being discussed here.

Those chargers weigh a couple hundred pounds as well ...
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Old 02-15-2010, 09:50 PM   #11
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90 amp electric car charger! The future...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Thurman View Post
...How would a local POCO know the time of day which you would be charging these batteries? And: How can a POCO charge different rates for different times within a twenty-four (24) hour cycle...
They have electronic "Time of Use" (TOU) meters with an LCD display. These have the current date and time. And have say 3 different recording meters (done through software in the meter).

The meter will charge the peak electric use to one "meter" say from 6 am to 10 am or whatever. And maybe 4 pm to 8 pm.

Then between those times to the mid peak "meter".

And night time electric usage to the off peak "meter".

Then when the come to read the meter, they read all 3 "meters" to get the electric usage for the various times.

And an electric customer can agree to this type of payment for electric use. And would probably be able to shift their electric use to night time or mid peak via timers.

There are also certain "peak" electric usage times like the hottest day of summer where the electric company would need several additional generation plants to handle the load. These would only be used a few times a year and would cost a LOT of money. Instead what they do is get customers to reduce their electric use during these peak times (by agreement) and in return for them doing this, they get a reduced rate.

Also there are "smart meters" which can receive a signal from the electric company to shut off something or turn something back on.

More on that...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_grid
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Old 02-15-2010, 11:05 PM   #12
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90 amp electric car charger! The future...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy_Bob View Post

So how about a 45000 amp main panel with 1000 slots (double breaker) for that parking garage?

Seriously, how could this be done? The 90/70 amp charger can be connected to 3 phase per the instruction manual above...
I would think, at least for the next 20 years or so, you would actually have a limited number of charging stations. It is going to be a long time before electric are the majority vehicle.

and in 20 years, I will be retired so I don't care about it after that.
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Old 02-15-2010, 11:18 PM   #13
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90 amp electric car charger! The future...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Squirrel View Post
I would love to see electric cars be more mainstream. Electricity is way cheaper then gasoline.
here is a link for a Prius (granted, this was published in dec 2008) that stated it would take 9.4 years to get a payback due to the higher cost of the electrics if gas was $1.66/gal and 3.8 years with gas at $4.09/gal/

http://www.boston.com/cars/newsandre..._back_pri.html

and that does not take the costs of repairs into account. I have not heard much about the costs of repair except for one guy where his prius needed some little controller that cost several thousand dollars, and he was told it is a fairly common repair.

Now, with the newer vehicles coming out that are getting 30-40- and even 50 mpg, the payback period will increase and possibly to the point that it is not financially beneficial to even buy a hybrid or electric.
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Old 02-15-2010, 11:43 PM   #14
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90 amp electric car charger! The future...


Quote:
Originally Posted by kbsparky View Post

As noted in this thread, a good charger that can recharge a vehicle will require a 90 Amp single phase circuit -- which most homes do not have readily available. FWIW, many industrial electric forklift battery chargers require a 60 Amp 3 phase circuit -- which is comparable to the single phase 90 Amp circuit that is being discussed here.

Those chargers weigh a couple hundred pounds as well ...
Oh yeah serious sized charger and just watch the trend when many customer really pushing the exsting 200 amp single phase supply and I am not really amused one of the days POCO will wake up and start supply triphase supply to customer home.

In France that is old hat it is common to find three phase supply in there allready

Merci,Marc
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Old 02-16-2010, 11:47 AM   #15
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90 amp electric car charger! The future...


Most residential streets and some lengths of rural highways in the U.S. have one "phase line" from a 3 phase distribution system. If/when demand increases enough, the power company adds a second phase line; that part of the system is still considered single phase. Transformers to provide the usual 120/240 volt single phase power may have primaries wired either phase to phase or phase to ground in areas with two or all three phase lines.

Usually the customer who wants 3 phase power where it is not already strung has to pay part or all of the cost of stringing the additional wires along the street.

I would expect single phase chargers, not necessarily with the full 90 amp. input, become quite commonplace if all-electric cars become popular.
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