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Old 06-03-2009, 06:31 AM   #16
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400 Amp Upgrade / Transfer Switch


KB, excellent graphic. Exactly what I was talking about.
Only problem is, the 2" nipples (in red) are going to need to be probably under 2" long. This is a real problem with back to back equipment, with a flush panel and 2x4vwalls.





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Here is an idea: Stop thinking you have to use type "SE" cable. That stuff is bad news, as far as the Code is concerned. The new Code has derated type SE cable now to the point that it will be impractical to use it in most installations.
Can you explain this a little batter? What has changed other than having to use the 60 deg C column for branch circuits and feeders? I don't see that 310.15(B)(6) changed.

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Old 06-03-2009, 08:58 AM   #17
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Instead, install some PVC nipples directly from the back of the meter box into the backs of the panels, and then use some THWN copper lines to connect your panels. Or at least some XHHW Aluminum wires, if you can't stomach the cost of the copper. But there is so little copper required, the additional cost won't be much of a factor.

Here is your drawing, with the suggested revisions:
I thought about doing that. However, the guy I bought this 400 amp meter socket from also included about 20' of 200 amp SE cable, so my plan was to just use this new cable, keeping the costs down.

When I originally was just doing a new MS and panel swap, I bought 6' of XHHW AL to use.

My concern with the nipples is that I am going through the brick, 1/2" insulation board to the panel...and being able to get the two nipples and a piece of PVC short enough to screw into the back of the MS and panel.

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N
To deal with that 3" hole in the back, just buy a blank octagon or 1900 blank cover, and fasten it over the hole, using small truss type TEK screws or pop-rivets. Same thing for that hole in the bottom of the meter box. You don't need a "weatherproof" blank-off on the bottom of the enclosure, since those knockouts were not weatherproof in the first place.
I wasnt sure if a cobbled up blanking panel like that would be permitted or not.

As for the bottom hole, I bough some reducers (3.5" to 2") and the installed a weather tight 2" plate on. I had thought about one of the pop in blanking plates, but I didnt like how it could be pried out with a screw driver. So I spent the exra $3 to do it the way I did.
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400 Amp Upgrade / Transfer Switch-img_5356.jpg   400 Amp Upgrade / Transfer Switch-img_5358.jpg  
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Old 06-03-2009, 04:40 PM   #18
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400 Amp Upgrade / Transfer Switch


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....problem is, the 2" nipples (in red) are going to need to be probably under 2" long. This is a real problem with back to back equipment, with a flush panel and 2x4vwalls....
Never a problem with me. I simply use a Terminal Adapter, along with a BOX adapter. Fits quite nicely into that space -- about 1-1" total length

Although, it looks like the OP has stated there is a brick wall to penetrate?

That should solve any problem with dealing with short sections of PVC.


Andrew, if you are still watching this thread, you can strip that SEU cable, and use the XHHW conductors in those PVC nipples. Just be sure to mark your neutral with some white tape.

No exposed service cable that way.
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Old 06-03-2009, 08:19 PM   #19
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Quote:
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Never a problem with me. I simply use a Terminal Adapter, along with a BOX adapter. Fits quite nicely into that space -- about 1-1" total length

Although, it looks like the OP has stated there is a brick wall to penetrate?

That should solve any problem with dealing with short sections of PVC.


Andrew, if you are still watching this thread, you can strip that SEU cable, and use the XHHW conductors in those PVC nipples. Just be sure to mark your neutral with some white tape.

No exposed service cable that way.
Why even bother stripping the SEU cable? I wasnt planning on it going through the nipples.

I still want to drill only one hole in the wall, not two.
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400 Amp Upgrade / Transfer Switch-img_1060.jpg   400 Amp Upgrade / Transfer Switch-img_1061.jpg   400 Amp Upgrade / Transfer Switch-img_1062.jpg   400 Amp Upgrade / Transfer Switch-img_1057.jpg  
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Old 06-10-2009, 11:44 PM   #20
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400 Amp Upgrade / Transfer Switch


After a long day of work, the new meter socket is in and the two new 200 amp panels are done.

The electrician helping me with the project said that code requires to have AFCI on bedroom circuits, so I had to drop another $130 for ACFIs...GRRR!

Looking at these photos, anything look "wrong"?

The temporary conduit is until POCO comes out and fishes 2/0 through the 3" PVC that will run to the transformer. The POCO engineer said to just run a jumper from the new MS to the old MS until they do that.

I imagine the county inspector will have a cow when he sees it....
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Old 06-10-2009, 11:47 PM   #21
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Original panel.

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Old 06-13-2009, 12:23 PM   #22
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1) I can't tell what kind of connector was utilized where the SEU cable enters those panels. The inspector might flag you on this point.

2) The other thing I might have suggested is to orient the new panels with the mains at the bottom. In many areas, an inspector probably wouldn't mind either way, but I have seen "anal" types that would throw a hissy fit with that main cable looped to the top.

I should have gotten your contact info, since I was just in the Dayton area this past week.

Unless you have installed new circuits for those bedrooms, you should not be required to use AFCI breakers
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Old 06-13-2009, 09:10 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbsparky View Post
1) I can't tell what kind of connector was utilized where the SEU cable enters those panels. The inspector might flag you on this point.
There is a 1 1/2" pvc pipe that comes from the back of the meter socket into the back of the electrical panel. It is threaded on both ends. Total length is about 4". (Whatever it took to get through brick and the 3/4" insulation board.


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2) The other thing I might have suggested is to orient the new panels with the mains at the bottom. In many areas, an inspector probably wouldn't mind either way, but I have seen "anal" types that would throw a hissy fit with that main cable looped to the top.
I had thought about that, but the electrician helping me said it didnt matter, so we left them at the top and ran the cables up. While the inspector might give a fit, i am pretty sure it doesnt break any codes though.


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Unless you have installed new circuits for those bedrooms, you should not be required to use AFCI breakers
I have installed zero new circuits. I thought I had to put the AFCI breakers in because of it being a new panel. That being said, I dont think the inspector would have required it...I did call him and asked him if I had to do it for all living areas or just the bedrooms and that I had done only the bedrooms. He said that was fine.

We'll know for sure Monday when he comes for the final.

Make it through Dayton often?
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Old 06-13-2009, 09:20 PM   #24
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400 Amp Upgrade / Transfer Switch


It looks pretty good

One thing I would do before inspection is reidentify that white wire on the two pole breaker at the top of the right panel.

I do your have bonding screws in? (I hope!)

One question I have is how your temp jumper is connected to your new meter socket; if you connect the temp power to the line lugs in the meter socket and throw the bypass the lever prevents you from putting the cover on, unless your meter blanking plate has jumper bars on it.
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Old 06-13-2009, 09:22 PM   #25
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400 Amp Upgrade / Transfer Switch


Today I dug the 95' trench for the new service. I dug most of it 30" deep, except for where I had to go under the line to the septic tank. I buried it 36" there in case the septic line ever had to be replaced or messed with.

Here are a few photos.
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Old 06-13-2009, 09:50 PM   #26
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400 Amp Upgrade / Transfer Switch


Wow, they make you dig your own trench for underground feeds?

I get into the Dayton area several times a year. My folks live in West Carrollton. I just spent the past week there, helping them fix a few things around the house.

It's a 600 mile drive home from there, drove 11 hours yesterday.
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Old 06-15-2009, 01:32 PM   #27
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400 Amp Upgrade / Transfer Switch


When I first spoke to the utility engineer, he said it would cost me 1-2k for the upgrade, including re-locating the transformer away from the house.

Through the course of our discussions, it was suggested that if I dig the trench and run 95' of conduit to the new location, they would absorb all the other costs, including the 2/0 service cable and a new transformer.

I spent about $90 on the 3" conduit and fittings, which was cheaper than the alternative. I had to run the 3" PVC underneath the septic tank line, I can only imagine if they sent one of their guys out to dig the trench, what would have happened and the extra costs to repair the damage.

I passed the inspection this morning and am now just waiting on the utility company to complete their part of the project.
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Old 06-17-2009, 04:47 PM   #28
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The contractor for the electric company came out and ran the new cable in my conduit for the 400 amp service.

However, they ran 4/0 which is typically rated for 200 amp service, right?

I'll call them tomorrow and see if it was a mistake, the engineer told me they'd run 2/0 for the 400 amp service.
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Old 06-17-2009, 05:02 PM   #29
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Nope. Nadda.

4/0 URD cable is typically rated for 315 Amps.

No call is necessary to the utility or their contractor.

2/0 is rated for 245 Amps.

Don't believe it? Click here for the ampacity chart from Southwire.

Scroll down to page 2 for the applicable chart.

Remember utilities are not subject to the NEC, which typically limits a 4/0 cable to a 200 Amp residential service.
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Old 06-17-2009, 05:32 PM   #30
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I don't know what they are referencing with that chart, but 4/0AL is good for a 200A single phase dwelling service according to NEC 310.15(B)(6).

I have seen utilities run some extremely undersized laterals. I have no idea what they base this ampacity on.

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