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Old 06-07-2011, 11:59 AM   #16
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3 way switches. help me before i go insane


Problem is I don't consider that drawing a switch loop. The feed is at the switch not at the light fixture.
How would you like if the power feed went to the common of the first switch and the black from the far switch connected to the black to fixture.

3 way switches. help me before i go insane-threeway.jpg

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Old 06-07-2011, 12:38 PM   #17
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Functionally I don't see any difference between the two methods Joe.

Why would you not consider the wiring to the 2nd switch a switch loop? You are only taking hot conductors to and from the switch.
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Old 06-07-2011, 05:09 PM   #18
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You're right Jim, there is no difference in either scenerio. As long as the power goes to one common and the load to the other common, makes no difference which switch gets which or where it's located in the circuit. I know you guys know this, just saying.
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Old 06-07-2011, 06:11 PM   #19
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Kyles Rules for 3-ways are very helpful. You should make a sticky, Kyle
  1. Power (feed; black from source) goes to one Common.
  2. Load (black, or reidentified white), from light goes to other Common (on 2nd switch).
  3. Source white (Neutral) goes directly to light.
  4. Travelers (red and black - if using 3-wire cable) connect to remaining terminals on switches.
  5. If a white is used as a HOT, it must be reidentified as such at both ends (black tape, or a Sharpie Pen).
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Old 06-07-2011, 07:26 PM   #20
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I am disputing the fact that it was said the white wire must be used to go TO the far switch as the power feed and the black used as a traveller. I believe that only applies to a feed at the light fixture so that you don't end up with two whites on the fixture.
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Old 06-07-2011, 07:41 PM   #21
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I agree with you joe, it doesn’t have to go to the far switch. It can go to either. Where was it said it had to? (curious)

If you’re referring to the diagram I posted, I was pointing out the travellers and switch leg the OP asked about.
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Old 06-07-2011, 07:55 PM   #22
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Kyle, I posted 200.7 that says the white must be used as a feed to the switch. Joe does not think a dead-end 3w is a switch loop if I understand his position so I think he is saying 200.7 would not apply. As long as you don't end up with two whites at the fixture.
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Old 06-07-2011, 09:09 PM   #23
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Gotcha
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Old 06-07-2011, 09:13 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
Kyle, I posted 200.7 that says the white must be used as a feed to the switch. Joe does not think a dead-end 3w is a switch loop if I understand his position so I think he is saying 200.7 would not apply. As long as you don't end up with two whites at the fixture.

That's it.
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Old 06-07-2011, 09:49 PM   #25
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you have a traveler and the switch leg crossed.
much thanks. it was a simple fix. the old 3 way switch on top the stairs have those white and red on different sides.
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Old 06-08-2011, 08:23 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
Kyle, I posted 200.7 that says the white must be used as a feed to the switch. Joe does not think a dead-end 3w is a switch loop if I understand his position so I think he is saying 200.7 would not apply. As long as you don't end up with two whites at the fixture.
The code doesn't state it must.

310.12 Conductor Identification.
(A) Grounded Conductors. Insulated or covered grounded conductors shall be identified in accordance with 200.6.
(B) Equipment Grounding Conductors. Equipment grounding conductors shall be in accordance with 250.119.
(C) Ungrounded Conductors. Conductors that are intended for use as ungrounded conductors, whether used as a single conductor or in multiconductor cables, shall be finished to be clearly distinguishable from grounded and grounding conductors. Distinguishing markings shall not conflict in any manner with the surface markings required by 310.11(B)(1). Branch-circuit ungrounded conductors shall be identified in accordance with 210.5(C). Feeders shall be identified in accordance with 215.12.

Exception: Conductor identification shall be permitted in accordance with 200.7.

200.7 Use of Insulation of a White or Gray Color or with Three Continuous White Stripes.
(A) General. The following shall be used only for the grounded circuit conductor, unless otherwise permitted in 200.7(B) and (C):
(1) A conductor with continuous white or gray covering
(2) A conductor with three continuous white stripes on
other than green insulation
(3) A marking of white or gray color at the termination

(C) Circuits of 50 Volts or More. The use of insulation that is white or gray or that has three continuous white stripes for other than a grounded conductor for circuits of 50 volts or more shall be permitted only as in (1)
through (3).
(1) If part of a cable assembly and where the insulation is permanently reidentified to indicate its use as an ungrounded conductor, by painting or other effective means at its termination, and at each location where the
conductor is visible and accessible. Identification shall encircle the insulation and shall be a color other than white, gray, or green.
(2) Where a cable assembly contains an insulated conductor for single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops and the conductor with white or gray insulation or a marking of three continuous white stripes is used for the supply to the switch but not as a return conductor from the switch to the switched outlet.
In these applications, the conductor with white or gray insulation or with three continuous white stripes shall be permanently reidentified to indicate its use by painting or other effective means at its terminations and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible.

When it is a cable assembly "and the white is used as the supply" it has to be permanently reidentified. In the OP diagram the white wire is a traveller and does not require any reidentification. Had the white wire been used as a feed then it shall comply with the above.
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Old 06-08-2011, 11:09 AM   #27
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Those above codes seem to me to only deal with conductor identification. I don't see the part where is must be used to feed the switch. It says "where it is used" not it "must be used". I am not familiar with all the code articles but there must another section that says how to use the white in switch loops.
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Old 06-08-2011, 12:34 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joed View Post
Those above codes seem to me to only deal with conductor identification. I don't see the part where is must be used to feed the switch. It says "where it is used" not it "must be used". I am not familiar with all the code articles but there must another section that says how to use the white in switch loops.
Did you read 200.7(C)(2). That is the article.
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Old 06-08-2011, 03:35 PM   #29
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OK I see it now. It does specifically say "not as return to the outlet". So I think it only refers to the cable assy going to the fixture(outlet) not between the three ways.

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