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Old 06-13-2012, 04:03 PM   #31
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3-way switch - powered switch in middle?


Quote:
Originally Posted by goosebarry View Post
I accept my morning flogging.
I will never attempt to draw at 2:00 AM. I grabbed the wrong switch from the library (yep it was a normal switch).

How about this (including properly marking the white wire)
Attachment 52397
Close.

Feed the dead end with the white conductor.

200.(7)(C)(2) Where a cable assembly contains an insulated conductor
for single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops and
the conductor with white or gray insulation or a marking
of three continuous white stripes is used for the
supply to the switch
but not as a return conductor from
the switch to the switched outlet. In these applications,
the conductor with white or gray insulation or with
three continuous white stripes shall be permanently reidentified
to indicate its use by painting or other effective
means at its terminations and at each location
where the conductor is visible and accessible.

Electrically what you drew is fine, this just a minor nit pick code section reference.

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Old 06-13-2012, 04:30 PM   #32
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3-way switch - powered switch in middle?


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Originally Posted by Code05 View Post
Electrically what you drew is fine, this just a minor nit pick code section reference.
Yeah, like anyone was going to catch it.
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Old 06-13-2012, 04:43 PM   #33
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3-way switch - powered switch in middle?


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Yeah, like anyone was going to catch it.
Go meet George in Salisbury, betcha he would.
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Old 06-13-2012, 07:50 PM   #34
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3-way switch - powered switch in middle?


This is an existing installation of a single pole switch. There is no neutral present now at the switch. Are you saying that to add the new switch and make this a three way, you are required to rewire the entire circuit to get a neutral in the switch box?
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Old 06-13-2012, 08:10 PM   #35
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3-way switch - powered switch in middle?


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Originally Posted by joed View Post
This is an existing installation of a single pole switch. There is no neutral present now at the switch. Are you saying that to add the new switch and make this a three way, you are required to rewire the entire circuit to get a neutral in the switch box?
Under our most current code, we have to have a neutral at every switch now, unless adding one later is easy, ie conduit or have access above, below, or behind without damaging finishes.
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Old 06-13-2012, 08:12 PM   #36
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3-way switch - powered switch in middle?


Quote:
Originally Posted by joed View Post
This is an existing installation of a single pole switch. There is no neutral present now at the switch. Are you saying that to add the new switch and make this a three way, you are required to rewire the entire circuit to get a neutral in the switch box?
Interesting thought. I don't know how that aspect would be addressed.
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Old 06-13-2012, 08:18 PM   #37
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3-way switch - powered switch in middle?


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Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
Interesting thought. I don't know how that aspect would be addressed.
You wouldn't have to address it, since you were able to snake the 3 wire up, you could always snake a new branch circuit up later if a neutral was required at a later date.
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Old 06-13-2012, 08:25 PM   #38
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3-way switch - powered switch in middle?


I don't think that would meet the Exception 2 condition.

(C) Switches Controlling Lighting Loads.
Where switches
control lighting loads supplied by a grounded general purpose
branch circuit, the grounded circuit conductor for the controlled
lighting circuit shall be provided at the switch location.

Exception: The grounded circuit conductor shall be permitted
to be omitted from the switch enclosure where either
of the following conditions in (1) or (2) apply:
(1) Conductors for switches controlling lighting loads enter
the box through a raceway. The raceway shall have
suffıcient cross-sectional area to accommodate the extension
of the grounded circuit conductor of the lighting
circuit to the switch location whether or not the
conductors in the raceway are required to be increased
in size to comply with 310.15(B)(3)(a).
(2) Cable assemblies for switches controlling lighting
loads enter the box through a framing cavity that is
open at the top or bottom on the same floor level, or
through a wall, floor, or ceiling that is unfinished on
one side.
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Old 06-13-2012, 08:57 PM   #39
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3-way switch - powered switch in middle?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
I don't think that would meet the Exception 2 condition.

(C) Switches Controlling Lighting Loads.
Where switches
control lighting loads supplied by a grounded general purpose
branch circuit, the grounded circuit conductor for the controlled
lighting circuit shall be provided at the switch location.

Exception: The grounded circuit conductor shall be permitted
to be omitted from the switch enclosure where either
of the following conditions in (1) or (2) apply:
(1) Conductors for switches controlling lighting loads enter
the box through a raceway. The raceway shall have
suffıcient cross-sectional area to accommodate the extension
of the grounded circuit conductor of the lighting
circuit to the switch location whether or not the
conductors in the raceway are required to be increased
in size to comply with 310.15(B)(3)(a).
(2) Cable assemblies for switches controlling lighting
loads enter the box through a framing cavity that is
open at the top or bottom on the same floor level, or
through a wall, floor, or ceiling that is unfinished on
one side.


IMO, if the attic or basement are not finished, i.e. sheetrock, plywood, etc... then you meet the required criteria of unfinished....
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Old 06-13-2012, 09:09 PM   #40
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3-way switch - powered switch in middle?


I did not go backward in the thread to see if any of those conditions applied. If unfinished I would agree with you that the neutral does not need to be installed.

That will probably come in the 2017 edition when someone reads this and thinks ahead to when the wall might get finished. I don't see a part that says it would need to be installed if it previously did not have a neutral and you were finishing the area.
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Old 06-13-2012, 09:15 PM   #41
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3-way switch - powered switch in middle?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
I did not go backward in the thread to see if any of those conditions applied. If unfinished I would agree with you that the neutral does not need to be installed.

That will probably come in the 2017 edition when someone reads this and thinks ahead to when the wall might get finished. I don't see a part that says it would need to be installed if it previously did not have a neutral and you were finishing the area.
Im a huge fan of this requirement by the way, and i've actually burned myself dropping a switch leg down to the basement only to find out a Radio Ra switch with neutral connection was required, So i already changed my ways of wiring for my own personal benefit of retrofitting devices... We install a ton of Radio Ra 2 devices..
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Old 06-13-2012, 10:04 PM   #42
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3-way switch - powered switch in middle?


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Originally Posted by stickboy1375 View Post
Im a huge fan of this requirement by the way
What!?!? I gotta plan /install for what if.... This new section is BS.
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Old 06-13-2012, 10:12 PM   #43
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3-way switch - powered switch in middle?


Maybe they left out the part about not being a design manual? More and more seems to be headed that way.
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Old 06-14-2012, 06:59 AM   #44
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3-way switch - powered switch in middle?


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Originally Posted by goosebarry View Post
Here is stickboy1375 drawing in a less schematic look. Sorry I had to use blue for the white wire.
Goose...to avoid having to use blue for a white wire....just paint the entire background a light gray color before drawing anything else. Not a big deal using blue for white but just in case. I didnt do a sketch for this setup but attached one of two SP switches controlling two separate lights.
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Old 06-14-2012, 11:15 AM   #45
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3-way switch - powered switch in middle?


Wow. I thought this was going to be easy. All the discussion is great but I have to sort it out. Spent the day yesterday doing plumbing so I'm just now getting ready to hook up this light.

I do have nuetral at the switch. The original switch wire was damaged and I pulled new 14-2 wire from the light to the switch in the middle and 14-3 from the middle switch to the far-end switch.

So, am I to understand that Goose's latest drawing, if I add three strips of tape on the white wire instead of one, is the way to go?

Thanks

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