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Old 04-15-2008, 10:04 AM   #16
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3 Prong Range Hook up question


Thanks Speedy, Househelper and the others who have corrected my post. I will try and think a little bit and use my code book more often before posting wrong information. Thanks for going easy on me.

Ps.....When I joined this forum I thought I would be helping others. But it is I, that is getting help......Thanks John
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Old 04-15-2008, 11:44 AM   #17
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3 Prong Range Hook up question


It amazes me that we keep having this discussion brought up about the bare in a NM-b cable being capable of being a neutral just like an SE cable using its bare for a neutral. I'm not sure what consensus we are supposed to reach? Current can use the bare of an NM-b just as well as the bare of a SE cable.

So I hope those who bring this up are not suggesting that if you happen to have a 3 wire nm-b don't sweat it if you use the bare for your neutral on 3 wire range and dryer hookups. I think we have all agreed this is a code violation. BTW the liabilty would be huge if do this and it comes back on you.

As for 3 wire connections....the restriction to se cables or insulated conductors is to limit the 3 wire supplies to those installed before 1996 provided they originate at the service equipment....many did not. 3 wire range and dryer connections are no longer wanted but we have to live with a few oversites of the past due to the overwhelming number of these 3 wire large applaince branch circuits that exist today.

I visited the consumer products page for electrocutions in the home and last year 630 deaths occurred from electrocution. 19% of those were attributed to large appliances 2 were attributed to 3 wire connections to those appliances having a failed neutral, both were hard wired to se cables. It has has been my experience that when I have encountered older se cable connections that the appliance was hard wired about 50% of the time. If you can imagine this requires a little ingenuity getting that concentric neutral connected to the terminal of the appliance not to mention the hots. These connections are very iffy at best IMO. Cord connected is much better.

I generally hate to even suggest to reuse a 3 wire supply to a range or dryer. Because the reality is there is a shock hazzard even when connected properly. It would be very difficult in most cases to put yourself in a position where you would have a low impedance parallel path due to the load side bond of the neutral to the metal of the dryer or range. Open the neutral and that becomes a different story.

At any rate as 220/221 has stated the 4 wire connection is a very long needed update of these large appliances to require grounding that does not include the neutral path. When you think about it these appliances are huge surface areas of metal so you are in contact with that metal pretty much any time you fool with the appliance. So my opinion is 3 wires should be changed to 4 wires even at some expense to the homeowner. I would also require any hard wired se cables to be changed to cord and plug..

Just my thoughts guys.

Last edited by Stubbie; 04-15-2008 at 11:47 AM.
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Old 04-15-2008, 03:19 PM   #18
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3 Prong Range Hook up question


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So my opinion is 3 wires should be changed to 4 wires even at some expense to the homeowner. I would also require any hard wired se cables to be changed to cord and plug..
Great post Stubbie. I do try to convince customers to upgrade to 4 wire circuits. But then, I do this for money, so that figures. I am a little puzzled by your last sentence. Why cord and plug as opposed to 4 conductor hard wired? I'm not disputing you, just curious.
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Old 04-15-2008, 03:39 PM   #19
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3 Prong Range Hook up question


The bare SE wire would be difficult to wrap around the terminal in the range JB. The pigtail is pretty much a fool proof design.

Although.......yeah....strike that last comment. I have seen it all.
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Old 04-15-2008, 05:56 PM   #20
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3 Prong Range Hook up question


Hi John

Actually I was referring to the old 3 wire se's with the concentric braided neutral . Hard wiring an Ser is a bit better. Anyway I was primarily targeting 3 wire cables.

I do not like hard wiring a cable to the range/dryer terminal block. Ranges/Dryers are moved all the time for cleaning by the homeowner. Hard wiring to the cable to me is a wiring management nightmare. Considering the amount of slack you must have. Cord pigtails are much more forgiving than nm or se cables plus they can be unplugged from the electrical supply when you go to move the range/dryer. It also accommodates replacement. I'm not saying that a homeowner will not go down to the breaker box but in my experience a housewife pays little attention to how the appliance is wired but most of them know what to do when they see a cord and plug. I'm not even sure how many would even think of the cord and plug till they saw the thing but I just like the odds. I also like the fact that cords for dryers and ranges have terminal ends that are easily secured to the range or dryer using the eyelets or spade connections. Another advantage of cords is their flexibility.

One of the things I notice a lot that doesn't get mentioned here is very few ranges have the anti-tip brackets installed. Though this isn't an electrical issue it may pose more of a risk than one might think.

Last edited by Stubbie; 04-15-2008 at 06:02 PM.
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Old 04-15-2008, 09:58 PM   #21
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3 Prong Range Hook up question


That does make sense. Thanks.

I also agree on the anti tip bracket. I know a lady who was burned when she stooped to open the oven, and pulled out a heavy casserole pot in the oven. She pulled the oven rack out half way, the stove tipped forward and a boiling pot of food on the top of the stove slid off and spilled on her.
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