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Old 10-14-2011, 05:34 AM   #1
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220 v. to unattached garage


Hi!
Electrical people.
I have a neighbor who wants to run 220 v. to an unattached garage -
Appx. 30 ft.
Buried - 18 inches + -
Sch. 40, PVC - nothing under sidewalks/driveways -
I suggested, 10 g. -
He thinks 12 g. -
Plenty of space in the box (or so he says) -

10 g. - Black/Red/White/White/Green?
Ground Rod?
Disconnect in the garage?

Also, from the little I've discussed this - I think he might want to
pull 110 v. - from one side of the 220 v.
Sorry, I don't know yet, what he wants to run off the 220 v. ?!? -
Also, I don't know if it's 60 amp. or 100 amp. Service ?!?
Any help, would be good!

(Just to make matters worse - I haven't seen the box yet - but:
his description make's me think it's a "Federal" product!)

rossfingal

(A permit will pulled)

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Old 10-14-2011, 05:56 AM   #2
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220 v. to unattached garage


If he is considering 120v loads then it is a 120/240v multi-wire circuit.
If so then it may NOT be larger than 20A, and for that distance #12 is fine.
If he needs anything even code to 60-100A then #12 or #10 is dangerously too small.

I get the impression neither of you is very experienced in this type of work and asking simple questions, and for every detail, on an internet forum will not yield you all the information you need.
IMO the both of you need to seriously read up on the techniques and codes involved in doing this.
The fact that you are in Chicago(allconduit)land makes even more critical.

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Old 10-14-2011, 06:48 AM   #3
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220 v. to unattached garage


Speedy Petey -
Thanks for the response!
I do have experience (not as much as I would like!)
I discussed this with my friend, sitting on my deck, over a few beers -
Just trying to keep him out of "trouble" - and safe!

Simple questions, often produce simple (maybe, complex) answers.

I asked this because - I'd rather see him do it right.
(I'm in a Western Suburb of Chicago; not, "Chicago" proper)
The "codes" vary; somewhat, from municipality to municipality.
"Conduit"? - what's that?
Oh - you must, mean why I've got a 1/2 inch bender and a 3/4 inch
bender!?! (I think they're for "Pipe" - we don't run "Spaghetti"!)
Thanks again, for the response!

Thanks!

rossfingal
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Old 10-14-2011, 07:02 AM   #4
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220 v. to unattached garage


+1 to Speedy's post.

Also, you mention having a 1/2 and 3/4 " bender so you planning EMT (metal). Not approved for underground use. You need rigid metal conduit or PVC. I recommend the PVC (cheaper and easier). I would run at least 1.5" PVC even if you are only planning on #12 or #10. Larger is not that more money for conduit and will give you an easy upgrade route.
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Old 10-14-2011, 07:10 AM   #5
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220 v. to unattached garage


Thanks "rjniles"!
Read my post - "Sch. 40, PVC"!
I suggested 2 inch PVC.
(Planning for the future)
Also - my comment, concerning "benders" had nothing to do with what's going
underground!

Thanks for the feedback!

rossfingal

Last edited by rossfingal; 10-14-2011 at 07:22 AM.
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Old 10-14-2011, 07:34 AM   #6
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220 v. to unattached garage


Quote:
Originally Posted by rjniles View Post
+1 to Speedy's post.

Also, you mention having a 1/2 and 3/4 " bender so you planning EMT (metal). Not approved for underground use. You need rigid metal conduit or PVC. I recommend the PVC (cheaper and easier). I would run at least 1.5" PVC even if you are only planning on #12 or #10. Larger is not that more money for conduit and will give you an easy upgrade route.
Well, actually....

358.10 Uses Permitted.

(B) Corrosion Protection. Ferrous or nonferrous EMT, elbows,
couplings, and fittings shall be permitted to be installed
in concrete, in direct contact with the earth, or in areas
subject to severe corrosive influences where protected by corrosion
protection and judged suitable for the condition.
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Old 10-14-2011, 07:40 AM   #7
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220 v. to unattached garage


Thanks for the response "Code05"!
I know you can't be "definitive" -
an opinion -
8 g.?

rossfingal
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Old 10-14-2011, 07:47 AM   #8
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220 v. to unattached garage


Quote:
Originally Posted by rossfingal View Post
Thanks for the response "Code05"!
I know you can't be "definitive" -
an opinion -
8 g.?

rossfingal
I would need size of garage, calculated load, and future anticipated loads to offer an opinion.
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Old 10-14-2011, 07:57 AM   #9
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220 v. to unattached garage


Ah!!
"Discretion before Valor" -
I'm waiting to see the details, myself!
Thanks "Code05"!

rossfingal
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Old 10-14-2011, 09:33 AM   #10
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220 v. to unattached garage


Quote:
Originally Posted by rossfingal View Post
I have a neighbor who wants to run 220 v. to an unattached garage -
Appx. 30 ft.
Buried - 18 inches + -
Sch. 40, PVC - nothing under sidewalks/driveways -
I suggested, 10 g. -
He thinks 12 g. -
Plenty of space in the box (or so he says) -

10 g. - Black/Red/White/White/Green?
Ground Rod?
Disconnect in the garage?

Also, from the little I've discussed this - I think he might want to
pull 110 v. - from one side of the 220 v.
Sorry, I don't know yet, what he wants to run off the 220 v. ?!? -
Also, I don't know if it's 60 amp. or 100 amp. Service ?!?
Any help, would be good!

(Just to make matters worse - I haven't seen the box yet - but:
his description make's me think it's a "Federal" product!)

rossfingal

(A permit will pulled)
Lots of real electricians here, so I'll just put in a few thoughts that they skipped over. Definitely agree with others that first step is a load calc.
  • You'll need to refer to 310.16 [not 310.15(B)(6)] to get a conductor size. #10/#12 are nowhere close based on the currents you mention: for 75C Cu 60A is #6, 100A is #3.
  • You will need a disconnect there (225).
  • If it's more than one circuit or MWBC, you will need a ground system there (also tied to main panel ground) (250.32).
  • Four runs (not five, hots share neutral). Note that you need to get the correct color insulation (black, red, white, green) since for the sizes we're talking about you're not permitted to remark them. I think a lot of inspectors would pass it anyway, but why take the chance.
  • Garage = GFCI receptacles [210.8(A)(2)].
  • Unfinished walls (if applicable) = pipe may be req'd for accessible branches too. My inspector here (FL) did require it. Not sure if you're close enough to Chicago to pipe even in finished walls.

Matt
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Old 10-14-2011, 10:15 AM   #11
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220 v. to unattached garage


gatorheel
Thanks! (Matt)
Pertinent Info!
I was just "running it up the flagpole" - some feedback!
It's in the planning stages.
(My friend is not going to be happy about #6 - this stuff is not cheap)!
(I know the electrical inspector - that person will let me remark/tag it)

Thanks again! (gatorheel - Matt)!

rossfingal

(Also - GFCI's and "Pipe" -everywhere!)

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