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Old 01-20-2009, 08:26 PM   #1
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210.11(C)3 vs 210.23


I'm finally doing the homeruns for the two branch circuits for the new addition to the house. I was fairly sure that I can put all the bathroom stuff (fan and overhead light) on one circuit protected by a GFCI breaker. Then I read the code, then I did a forum search. Net result is that I still think I'm right but I cannot see how the code (2008) allows it. Help?

210.11(C)3 says "no other outlets" but the exception says see 210.23.

The A part of 210.23 seems the only applicable part since I'm doing a 20A circuit. It says in effect go ahead and stick other stuff on as long as the load is small.

But then there's the exception to 210.23(A) that says "bathroom branch circuits....shall supply only the receptacle outlets..." So don't we end up back where we started? Ie no, you can't hang anything else on the receptacle circuit?

Educate me, please folks? Thanks.

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Old 01-20-2009, 08:30 PM   #2
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210.11(C)3 vs 210.23


210.11(C)3 vs 210.23-210.11-c-3-.jpg..................

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Old 01-20-2009, 08:34 PM   #3
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210.11(C)3 vs 210.23


The exception to 210.11(C)(3) points you to 210.23(A)(1) and (A)(2), thus bypassing 210.23(A) exception.

If the circuit serves a single bathroom, then the lights and fan can be on the receptacle circuit.
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Old 01-20-2009, 08:47 PM   #4
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210.11(C)3 vs 210.23


Shouldn't it say no single fixed in place load?
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Old 01-20-2009, 08:53 PM   #5
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210.11(C)3 vs 210.23


Yes, how do they control the 1500-1850 watt hair dryers
Main reason I have a dedicated circuit to each bathroom for outlets
Lights I put on another circuit so if the wife kicks out the breaker I still want the lights on
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Old 01-20-2009, 08:53 PM   #6
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210.11(C)3 vs 210.23


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stubbie View Post
Shouldn't it say no single fixed in place load?

Do you have a 2008 nec? I dont.



2005


(3) Bathroom Branch Circuits
In addition to the number of branch circuits required by
other parts of this section, at least one 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to
supply bathroom receptacle outlet(s). Such circuits shall have no other outlets.
Exception: Where the 20-ampere circuit supplies a single bathroom, outlets for other
equipment within the same bathroom shall be permitted to be supplied in accordance
with 210.23(A)(1) and (A)(2).




So, yes it should say fastened in place.


Last edited by chris75; 01-20-2009 at 08:57 PM.
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Old 01-20-2009, 08:57 PM   #7
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210.11(C)3 vs 210.23


Chris75 I love all the drawings you get, where do get them?
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Old 01-20-2009, 08:59 PM   #8
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210.11(C)3 vs 210.23


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stubbie View Post
Shouldn't it say no single fixed in place load?
I think the answer is obvious, but I know where your coming from.
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Old 01-20-2009, 09:00 PM   #9
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210.11(C)3 vs 210.23


Quote:
Originally Posted by ctsmiths View Post
Chris75 I love all the drawings you get, where do get them?
Either at Mike Holts site, or EC&M
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Old 01-20-2009, 09:01 PM   #10
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210.11(C)3 vs 210.23


From 2008, I think that diagram is from the handbook?

Quote:
210.11
(C) Dwellling Units.
(3) Bathroom Branch Circuits. In addition to the number
of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at
least one 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to
supply bathroom receptacle outlet(s). Such circuits shall
have no other outlets.

Exception: Where the 20-ampere circuit supplies a single
bathroom, outlets for other equipment within the same
bathroom shall be permitted to be supplied in accordance
with 210.23(A)(1) and (A)(2).
FPN: See Examples D1(a), D1(b), D2(b), and D4(a) in
Annex D.
Quote:
210.23 Permissible Loads. In no case shall the load exceed
the branch-circuit ampere rating. An individual branch
circuit shall be permitted to supply any load for which it is
rated. A branch circuit supplying two or more outlets or
receptacles shall supply only the loads specified according
to its size as specified in 210.23(A) through (D) and as
summarized in 210.24 and Table 210.24.
Quote:
210.24 Br2l1lcllu-Circuit JReCJluiJrements - Summary. The
requirements for circuits that have two or more outlets or
receptacles, other than the receptacle circuits of 210.11 (C)( 1)
and (C)(2), are summarized in Table 210.24. This table provides
only a summary of minimum requirements. See 210.19,
210.20, and 210.21 for the specific requirements applying to
branch circuits.
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Old 01-20-2009, 09:02 PM   #11
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210.11(C)3 vs 210.23


InPhase -- Thank you!! That really never occurred to me and will probably help me many times in the future. I read the other thread about whether non-pro's should bother with NEC, but I prefer to go to the source and it just bugs me when I can't make sense of it. Like when I couldn't see why "outlet" doesn't equal "receptacle" (in that case, don't try to understand it, just read the definitions at the beginning). -- Phil
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Old 01-21-2009, 01:56 AM   #12
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210.11(C)3 vs 210.23


Quote:
Originally Posted by chris75 View Post
I think the answer is obvious, but I know where your coming from.
Yeah but I just got corrected over on another forum where the moderator said that you could have 2 or 3 fixed in place 10 amp loads, that the code reads no single fixed in place load can exceed 10 amps. I read 210.23(A)(2) to read the total fixed in place utilization equipment cannot exceed 10 amps. I say that means one single load or the sum of 1 or more fixed loads.
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Old 01-21-2009, 06:59 AM   #13
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210.11(C)3 vs 210.23


Quote:
Originally Posted by philS View Post
InPhase -- Thank you!! That really never occurred to me and will probably help me many times in the future. I read the other thread about whether non-pro's should bother with NEC, but I prefer to go to the source and it just bugs me when I can't make sense of it. Like when I couldn't see why "outlet" doesn't equal "receptacle" (in that case, don't try to understand it, just read the definitions at the beginning). -- Phil
When trying to understand definitions refer to article 100 - Definitions.

outlet -- A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment. (this would include the "receptacle outlet" or receptacle" and the fan and the lights and the switch

receptacle -- A contact device installed at the outlet for the connection of an attachment plug.

So the receptacle is a subset of the outlet
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Old 01-21-2009, 11:29 AM   #14
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210.11(C)3 vs 210.23


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stubbie View Post
Yeah but I just got corrected over on another forum where the moderator said that you could have 2 or 3 fixed in place 10 amp loads, that the code reads no single fixed in place load can exceed 10 amps. I read 210.23(A)(2) to read the total fixed in place utilization equipment cannot exceed 10 amps. I say that means one single load or the sum of 1 or more fixed loads.
That's strange, I know I wouldn't want to hook up more then one 10a load on a 20a circuit with outlets. I guess 2 might be OK if nothing else was on the circuit. I guess what you can do varies from what you should do in some cases
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Old 01-21-2009, 03:35 PM   #15
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210.11(C)3 vs 210.23


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stubbie View Post
Yeah but I just got corrected over on another forum where the moderator said that you could have 2 or 3 fixed in place 10 amp loads, that the code reads no single fixed in place load can exceed 10 amps. I read 210.23(A)(2) to read the total fixed in place utilization equipment cannot exceed 10 amps. I say that means one single load or the sum of 1 or more fixed loads.

I agree with you, its the total not just one piece of fastened in place piece of equipment.

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