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Old 03-07-2013, 06:22 PM   #16
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20 amp outlet


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Originally Posted by FrankLa View Post
Can I run a 20 amp. Circuit for both the fridge and the dishwasher? Or do I need 2 - 20 amp. Circuits?
Some places will let you run the dishwasher & dispoall on the same 20 amp circuit, if they are total no more than 20 amps.

It is the only catch that you can get by with both being on the same circuit and not have to go by the 80% rule, due to both would possibly not be running at the same time.

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Old 03-07-2013, 06:23 PM   #17
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20 amp outlet


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Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
But the DW CANNOT be on a SABC. NOR can it be on with the refer.
Sorry Speedy Petey. I can't find any of that in the '08 code. I also can't find an exception that allows the DW to be on a 15A circuit.
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Old 03-07-2013, 06:25 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
But the DW CANNOT be on a SABC. NOR can it be on with the refer.
In all actuality, any 20 amp circuit in the Kitchen/dining/pantry can be considered a SABC, whether it powers the fridge or not.
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Old 03-07-2013, 06:31 PM   #19
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20 amp outlet


OK, at the risk of beating this to death, here goes:

Quote:
210.52(B) Small Appliances.

(1) Receptacle Outlets Served.
In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.

Exception No. 1: In addition to the required receptacles specified by 210.52, switched receptacles supplied from a general-purpose branch circuit as defined in 210.70(A)(1), Exception No. 1, shall be permitted.

Exception No. 2: The receptacle outlet for refrigeration equipment shall be permitted to be supplied from an individual branch circuit rated 15 amperes or greater.

(2) No Other Outlets. The two or more small-appliance branch circuits specified in 210.52(B)(1) shall have no other outlets.

Exception No. 1: A receptacle installed solely for the electrical supply to and support of an electric clock in any of the rooms specified in 210.52(B)(1).

Exception No. 2: Receptacles installed to provide power for supplemental equipment and lighting on gas-fired ranges, ovens, or counter-mounted cooking units.
Refrigeration is specifically allowed on a SABC. As well, NO other outlets are allowed (IE: the DW).

The exception for the refer is that it can be on an INDIVIDUAL circuit of 15A or greater. That specifically means it cannot be on with the DW.

It does not matter to me if you agree (and that's OK), but I am just trying to validate my point.
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Old 03-07-2013, 07:20 PM   #20
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20 amp outlet


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Originally Posted by Glennsparky View Post
Sorry Speedy Petey. I can't find any of that in the '08 code. I also can't find an exception that allows the DW to be on a 15A circuit.
You cant have the DW on a SABC... you can have the DW on a 15 amp circuit as long as the nameplate allows...
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Old 03-07-2013, 08:33 PM   #21
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20 amp outlet


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Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
Sorry DMX, this is completely false. Especially the the code part.
So the 80% is not code then ?
Or is it just acceptted as good practice ?
It is mentioned quite regularly in this forum and others.


As for running breakers at full capacity,
I do a lot of industrial style wiring for theatre,s and stages,
And I know from experience that running breakers at full capacity
is problematic at best, and nuisance tripping is common
on such systems.
I found thru experience that if you want to avoid trip outs
dont run breakers at full capacity.
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Old 03-07-2013, 08:48 PM   #22
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It is code, it is just with the Dishwasher/Disposall combo, it does not apply in that case. There are a couple of others, that the 80% rule is not applied. Also you are not running the rated amp of the breaker at 20 amps, it just states, that the total of the two cannot exceed the max rating of the breaker.
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Old 03-07-2013, 08:54 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stickboy1375 View Post
You cant have the DW on a SABC... you can have the DW on a 15 amp circuit as long as the nameplate allows...
If you think about it, any 20 amp circuit in the Kitchen/dining/pantry would be a SABC if you really look at it. It just depends on the use of the circuit, if it would be used as a SABC, or just a Branch circuit feeding that space.

Yes I am the sort of Glass is always full, even though half of it is just water.
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Old 03-07-2013, 09:21 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post
If you think about it, any 20 amp circuit in the Kitchen/dining/pantry would be a SABC if you really look at it. It just depends on the use of the circuit, if it would be used as a SABC, or just a Branch circuit feeding that space.

Yes I am the sort of Glass is always full, even though half of it is just water.
Greg, the only way a 20 amp circuit would be a SABC is if it were used in the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room or similar area of a dwelling unit, these shall serve ONLY all wall and floor receptacles covered in 210.52(A), all counter top receptacles covered by 210.52(C), and all receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.

so NO, not all 20 amp circuits are considered SABC, just the ones listed in the above use.

I think we are saying the same thing, but just making this clear to those following along...
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Old 03-07-2013, 09:50 PM   #25
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At some point, you know they are going to do away with the term "Small Appliance Branch Circuit", since it is a hold over from the 50's, when house wife's started to use more small appliances in the Kitchen. If it was not for World War II, a lot of stuff in the home would have never happened (ie microwave ovens, small sized toasters, blenders, etc.).

Today's society, the only "Small Appliance" you see in most kitchens, is a coffee maker & microwave oven. Lucky if there is a toaster oven or toaster in some. We have a friend who uses her oven as a "fire" safe, believe it not. Do not think that she has ever cooked in her Kitchen, but a pot of coffee, and popped some popcorn in the microwave, or toasted a Bagel in the toaster.
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Old 03-08-2013, 07:56 AM   #26
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20 amp outlet


After all this was the original question answered?
“Can I run a 20 amp. Circuit for both the fridge and the dishwasher? Or do I need 2 - 20 amp. Circuits?”
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Old 03-08-2013, 08:04 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Hardway View Post
After all this was the original question answered?
“Can I run a 20 amp. Circuit for both the fridge and the dishwasher? Or do I need 2 - 20 amp. Circuits?”
I guess you've only read some of the replies.

In my interpretation you cannot share them. You also do not need two 20A circuit for them. Two 15A would typically be fine.
You can share the DW and disp on a 20A.
The refer can be shared with a counter circuit, although this is not advised.
The DW CANNOT be shared with a counter circuit.

Read back a few posts. It's all there.
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Old 03-08-2013, 08:12 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
I guess you've only read some of the replies.

In my interpretation you cannot share them. You also do not need two 20A circuit for them. Two 15A would typically be fine.
You can share the DW and disp on a 20A.
The refer can be shared with a counter circuit, although this is not advised.
The DW CANNOT be shared with a counter circuit.

Read back a few posts. It's all there.
I read all the posts.
Here in Michigan in the small county up north, they required a single 20amp circuit for the fridge!
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Old 03-08-2013, 08:13 AM   #29
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DMX, a breaker can hold 125% of its rating for over 2 hours and be within spec. Check out some breaker trip curves for an idea of the trip times allowed.
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Old 03-08-2013, 08:15 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardway View Post
I read all the posts.
Here in Michigan in the small county up north, they required a single 20amp circuit for the fridge!
Legal written local amendments will almost always trump the NEC.

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