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Old 05-22-2013, 11:53 PM   #31
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2 switches, working on same circuit HELP!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by k_buz View Post
What you are missing is that the article you are quoting is telling you how you can "pick up" a ground to legally extend an ungrounded circuit. You cannot extend an ungrounded circuit without providing a ground connected to one of those points.
well I'll go with you what you guys say, but the article is still misleading.

"pick up a ground" you say? But the article states that no ground shall be connected, or something to that effect, so the whole circuit is STILL ungrounded. There's no "picking up a ground".

Right?

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Old 05-23-2013, 06:17 AM   #32
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2 switches, working on same circuit HELP!!


250.130 C is telling you that if you extend an ungrounded branch circuit, the equipment grounding conductor (of the new extension) must be connected to one of those points listed

Quote:
(C) Nongrounding Receptacle Replacement or Branch
Circuit Extensions. The equipment grounding conductor
of a grounding-type receptacle or a branch-circuit extension
shall be permitted to be connected to any of the following:
(1) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode system
as described in 250.50
(2) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode conductor
(3) The equipment grounding terminal bar within the enclosure
where the branch circuit for the receptacle or
branch circuit originates
(4) For grounded systems, the grounded service conductor
within the service equipment enclosure
(5) For ungrounded systems, the grounding terminal bar
within the service equipment enclosure
The second article you quote is 406.4 (D)(2). This article is strictly talking about receptacle replacements. NOT receptacle replacement and branch circuit extensions.

Quote:
(D) Replacements. Replacement of receptacles shall comply
with 406.4(D)(1) through (D)(6), as applicable.

(2) Non–Grounding-Type Receptacles. Where attachment
to an equipment grounding conductor does not exist in the
receptacle enclosure, the installation shall comply with
(D)(2)(a), (D)(2)(b), or (D)(2)(c).
(a) A non–grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted
to be replaced with another non–grounding-type receptacle(
s).
(b) A non–grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted
to be replaced with a ground-fault circuit interruptertype
of receptacle(s). These receptacles shall be marked
“No Equipment Ground.” An equipment grounding conductor
shall not be connected from the ground-fault circuitinterrupter-
type receptacle to any outlet supplied from the
ground-fault circuit-interrupter receptacle.
(c) A non–grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted
to be replaced with a grounding-type receptacle(s)
where supplied through a ground-fault circuit interrupter.
Grounding-type receptacles supplied through the groundfault
circuit interrupter shall be marked “GFCI Protected”
and “No Equipment Ground.” An equipment grounding
conductor shall not be connected between the groundingtype
receptacles.
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Last edited by k_buz; 05-23-2013 at 06:20 AM.
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Old 05-23-2013, 07:10 AM   #33
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2 switches, working on same circuit HELP!!


So Guys......In reference to code sections addressing 1) replacement of an ungrounded receptical and 2) extending an ungrounded branch, code prescribes and requires two pretty DIFFERENT approaches, for essentially the same issue, with pretty different results.

1) You are only allowed to GFI the circut, label appopiately, and end up with UN-grounded receps

2)You are required to in effect install a "jumper" ground, (out of its raceway with its circurt... which I might add is prohibited somewhere else in the code) and you end up with a grounded recep on a branch of ungrounded receps, with ground wires running willy nilly through you attic /basement/ framing.

I find it pecular/interesting the code logic. Why can't you use solution 2 for issue 1 and visa-versa.

Actually, that is not so esoteric and theoretical an issue. It is exactly what I am presented at my daughters home, and I'm sure extensively accross the country with ungrounded system homes built before the 60's.

Untill we completey open up her home for a redo, I wanted to replace and run some jumper grounds to existing receps where the old recep boxes were to small/filled to accept GFI's.

I would be out of code if I did so... assuming my understanding is correct?.... but I would have provided her a safer partial system...No???

Just interesting / pecular code logic to me.

Best

Peter
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Old 05-23-2013, 07:45 AM   #34
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2 switches, working on same circuit HELP!!


Sir, if you want to extend an ungrounded circuit, the new part must be grounded by one of the methods in 250.130.

If you are replacing 2 prong receptacles you need to use the rules in 406.

As MTN states above the methods seem to not be in sync with each other or even other articles in the code.
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Old 05-23-2013, 12:42 PM   #35
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2 switches, working on same circuit HELP!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by k_buz View Post


(b) A non–grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted
to be replaced with a ground-fault circuit interrupter-type
of receptacle(s). These receptacles shall be marked
“No Equipment Ground.” An equipment grounding conductor
shall not be connected from the ground-fault circuit interrupter-
type receptacle to any outlet supplied from the
ground-fault circuit-interrupter receptacle.


(c) A non–grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted
to be replaced with a grounding-type receptacle(s)
where supplied through a ground-fault circuit interrupter.
Grounding-type receptacles supplied through the ground-fault
circuit interrupter shall be marked “GFCI Protected”
and “No Equipment Ground.” An equipment grounding
conductor shall not be connected between the grounding type
receptacles.
Okay, I see it now, I think. ??

This is talking about an existing circuit where we replace a receptacle, say on the first receptacle, and then the downstream receptacles (existing - not extended) may be replaced by grounding-type receptacles EXCEPT that the EGCs are not to be terminated.

The above doesn't allow for the extension of such a circuit.
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Last edited by sirsparksalot; 05-23-2013 at 01:03 PM.
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Old 05-23-2013, 12:55 PM   #36
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2 switches, working on same circuit HELP!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by k_buz View Post


(b) A non–grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted
to be replaced with a ground-fault circuit interrupter-type
of receptacle(s). These receptacles shall be marked
“No Equipment Ground.” An equipment grounding conductor
shall not be connected from the ground-fault circuit interrupter-
type receptacle to any outlet supplied from the
ground-fault circuit-interrupter receptacle.

(c) A non–grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted
to be replaced with a grounding-type receptacle(s)
where supplied through a ground-fault circuit interrupter.
Grounding-type receptacles supplied through the ground-fault
circuit interrupter shall be marked “GFCI Protected”
and “No Equipment Ground.” An equipment grounding
conductor shall not be connected between the grounding type
receptacles.
Quote:
Okay, I see it now, I think. ??

This is talking about an existing circuit where we replace a receptacle, say on the first receptacle, and then the downstream receptacles (existing - not extended) may be replaced by grounding-type receptacles EXCEPT that the EGCs are not to be terminated.

The above doesn't allow for the extension of such a circuit.
The above is where a 2 prong receptacle is replaced with a 3 prong downstream of GFI protection. The 3 prong still is not grounded. It only allows the insertion of a 3 prong cord cap. Note: The NEC requires certain equipment to only be used on grounded circuits, a refrigerator is one of these items.

As the circuit is still not grounded it cannot be extended. Stickboy shows this graphic in post #29.
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Last edited by Jim Port; 05-23-2013 at 01:13 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 05-23-2013, 01:04 PM   #37
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2 switches, working on same circuit HELP!!


Thanks Jim, and everyone for getting me straight I got it now.

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