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Old 05-21-2013, 08:54 PM   #1
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2 switches, working on same circuit HELP!!


I recently bought a home and trying to add an additional light to the kitchen. Currently there are 4 LED recessed lights on one switch. I would like to add an additional switch controling a pendant light on the same circuit. I have included an exact diagram of the current wiring including wire color placement. What do I need to do in order to add the pendant light? Everything I've tried so far only leads to partial lighting or nothing at all. Adjustments to my diagram are welcome with what needs to be placed where if it's at all possible.
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Old 05-21-2013, 09:08 PM   #2
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2 switches, working on same circuit HELP!!


Are there really just 2 wires at the switch, a black and a white? Ig nore the ground for this case.

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Old 05-21-2013, 09:10 PM   #3
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2 switches, working on same circuit HELP!!


yeah just those 2 and no ground
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Old 05-21-2013, 09:14 PM   #4
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2 switches, working on same circuit HELP!!


Unless you have conduit, there are two reasons you will not be able to do this. One, ungrounded systems are not to be extended. Two, you do not have a neutral at the switch location.
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Old 05-21-2013, 09:18 PM   #5
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2 switches, working on same circuit HELP!!


there's no conduit...I believe the second switch was connected to a ceiling fan in the past as part of the circuit was still there but no longer connected to anything. I think the recessed lights were a new addition and fan was taken out. with no fan/light combination theres no longer any light above the kitchen table.
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Old 05-21-2013, 09:29 PM   #6
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2 switches, working on same circuit HELP!!


I know this is a schematic, but practically speaking, do you have any wiring access to the neutral wire that is shown to run from your EDIT FIRST, (not last.. I just looked at picture) led light to the panel.

EDIT: Ya know, I just thought about that, and if ya did have access, you probably could just run a new circut as easily.
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Old 05-21-2013, 09:33 PM   #7
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2 switches, working on same circuit HELP!!


yeah I have access to all....to all thats in the ceiling fishing new lines in walls isn't my specialty...I was hoping there might be a way to just splice a wire or 2 from above?

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Old 05-21-2013, 10:22 PM   #8
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2 switches, working on same circuit HELP!!


Well you could put a Jbox in and pick up both your hot neutral from the vicinity I was talking about and either run to the pendent or to the switch, at your choice / convenience.

About all you're saving (in effort) is not having to tie into the service panel with a new circut.
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Old 05-21-2013, 10:23 PM   #9
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2 switches, working on same circuit HELP!!


it's worth a shot..I appreciate the advice!
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Old 05-21-2013, 10:40 PM   #10
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2 switches, working on same circuit HELP!!


Again, the ungrounded circuit should not be extended.
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Old 05-21-2013, 10:48 PM   #11
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2 switches, working on same circuit HELP!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
Again, the ungrounded circuit should not be extended.
Jim... I agree that we should all have grounded circuits... but as curiosity because of my ignorence... how does code address extending an ungrounded circut.,,, or does it just say we shoulod not extend one.

Would a GFI suffice with a "no Eqip ground" label as applicable... or what about a ceiling light.

Thanks


Edit: Answers from me not necessarily based on the National Electrical Code ( local amendments and my guess may apply)
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Old 05-22-2013, 01:25 AM   #12
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2 switches, working on same circuit HELP!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
Again, the ungrounded circuit should not be extended.
Jim,

I interpret the following to mean that if a GFCI is installed in place of an ungrounded receptacle, that GFCI can provide extended circuits.

What am I missing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NEC 2008

406.3 (D) (3) Non–grounding-Type Receptacles. Where attachment to an equipment grounding conductor does not exist in the receptacle enclosure, the installation shall comply with (D)(3)(a), (D)(3)(b), or (D)(3)(c).
  • (a) A non–grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with another non–grounding-type receptacle(s).

  • (b) A non–grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with a ground-fault circuit interrupter-type of receptacle(s). These receptacles shall be marked “No Equipment Ground.” An equipment grounding conductor shall not be connected from the ground-fault circuit-interrupter-type receptacle to any outlet supplied from the ground-fault circuit-interrupter receptacle.

  • (c) A non–grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with a grounding-type receptacle(s) where supplied through a ground-fault circuit interrupter. Grounding-type receptacles supplied through the ground-fault circuit interrupter shall be marked “GFCI Protected” and “No Equipment Ground.” An equipment grounding conductor shall not be connected between the grounding-type receptacles.
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Old 05-22-2013, 08:05 AM   #13
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2 switches, working on same circuit HELP!!


That section only applies if two prong receptacles were being replaced. It does not apply to other applications like extending an ungrounded circuit.
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Old 05-22-2013, 10:41 AM   #14
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2 switches, working on same circuit HELP!!


If you have access to all wiring points then should be easy.
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Old 05-22-2013, 10:52 AM   #15
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2 switches, working on same circuit HELP!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by MTN REMODEL LLC View Post
Jim... I agree that we should all have grounded circuits... but as curiosity because of my ignorence... how does code address extending an ungrounded circut.,,, or does it just say we shoulod not extend one.

Would a GFI suffice with a "no Eqip ground" label as applicable... or what about a ceiling light.

Thanks


Edit: Answers from me not necessarily based on the National Electrical Code ( local amendments and my guess may apply)
Sorry for the delay. Here is 250.130 regarding ungrounded extensions.

(C) Nongrounding Receptacle Replacement or Branch
Circuit Extensions.
The equipment grounding conductor
of a grounding-type receptacle or a branch-circuit extension
shall be permitted to be connected to any of the following:
(1) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode system
as described in 250.50
(2) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode conductor
(3) The equipment grounding terminal bar within the enclosure
where the branch circuit for the receptacle or
branch circuit originates
(4) For grounded systems, the grounded service conductor
within the service equipment enclosure
(5) For ungrounded systems, the grounding terminal bar

within the service equipment enclosure


The new wiring needs to be grounded. Often times getting a ground back to one of the acceptable connections is a whole lot of work.

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