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-   -   2 quick questions about recepticles (http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/2-quick-questions-about-recepticles-15535/)

arichard21 01-13-2008 09:15 AM

2 quick questions about recepticles
 
Okay, this occured to me yesterday, and I am sure many of you have thought about it before. Is there a reason they didn't design recepticles with 2 ground connections instead of one? It just seems like it would be easier to wire if that were the case.

Also, What are the rules regarding using a 20AMP rated recepticle on a 15AMP cct? I want to add a recepticle right next to the panel, and I have some 14-2 and a spare 20AMP GFI recepticle. I know you can use a 15AMP recepticle on a 20AMP cct, but can it work the other way around?

AllanJ 01-13-2008 10:08 AM

Electricians typically twist together all the grounds as soon as the rough electrical work is done. Many cities also require a wire nut or a crimping ring around the twisted conglomeration.

This is the same idea as wire nutting each conductor continuing beyond an outlet box with pigtails to the receptacle or switch.

(Edited out, I stand corrected) surplus 20 amp. receptacle on the 14

handyman78 01-13-2008 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arichard21 (Post 87972)
Is there a reason they didn't design recepticles with 2 ground connections instead of one? It just seems like it would be easier to wire if that were the case.

A similar line of thinking was presented in a very lengthy heated post elsewhere on this site-
"Back in the day" some believe and maybe due to smaller boxes it was easier to use individual screws on receptacles to minimize space. I'm guessing that was the practice with 2 prong outlets and 14 gauge wire before we had ground connections. I've replaced outlets in some older homes with tight boxes where pigtails would never work.

Today many but not all electricians like to pigtail all conductors and T off for the outlet in question. It is a matter of preference. It does make you think though if that is a practical solution or standard practice, why DON'T they make outlets with 2 ground screws? I personally would not want to wrangle a duplex outlet into a box having 6-12g wires attached to it directly (in a continuous circuit).

chris75 01-13-2008 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arichard21 (Post 87972)
Okay, this occured to me yesterday, and I am sure many of you have thought about it before. Is there a reason they didn't design recepticles with 2 ground connections instead of one? It just seems like it would be easier to wire if that were the case.

It would be a violation of 250.148 of the NEC.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arichard21 (Post 87972)
Also, What are the rules regarding using a 20AMP rated recepticle on a 15AMP cct? I want to add a recepticle right next to the panel, and I have some 14-2 and a spare 20AMP GFI recepticle. I know you can use a 15AMP recepticle on a 20AMP cct, but can it work the other way around?

Only if your receptacle was a single receptacle on an individual branch circuit would it be allowed to install a 20 amp receptacle on a 15 amp branch circuit.

arichard21 01-13-2008 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris75 (Post 88008)
It would be a violation of 250.148.



Only if your receptacle was a single receptacle on an individual branch circuit would it be allowed to install a 20 amp receptacle on a 15 amp branch circuit.

I am not saying why can't I conect 2 wires to the same screw... I am asking why they wouldn't design one that has 2 ground screws.


I don't understand what you are saying about the recepticle... I can put a 20AMP Single outlet on a 15AMP cct, but not a duplex?

chris75 01-13-2008 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AllanJ (Post 87990)

You can go ahead and use a surplus 20 amp. receptacle on the 14 gauge 15 amp breakered circuit.

This would be a violation of 210.21(B)(3). Please understand the code before shouting out wrongful information.

chris75 01-13-2008 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arichard21 (Post 88011)
I am not saying why can't I conect 2 wires to the same screw... I am asking why they wouldn't design one that has 2 ground screws.

I know what your saying, and it would be a violation of the section I mentioned....

Quote:

Originally Posted by arichard21 (Post 88011)
I don't understand what you are saying about the recepticle... I can put a 20AMP Single outlet on a 15AMP cct, but not a duplex?

This is correct.

arichard21 01-13-2008 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris75 (Post 88014)
I know what your saying, and it would be a violation of the section I mentioned....



This is correct.

I am still a bit confused. I am trying to get opinions from people as to WHY they dont make recepticles that have 2 ground screws on them to feed through the same way that the hots and neutrals are.

jerryh3 01-13-2008 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arichard21 (Post 87972)
Okay, this occured to me yesterday, and I am sure many of you have thought about it before. Is there a reason they didn't design recepticles with 2 ground connections instead of one? It just seems like it would be easier to wire if that were the case.

Also, What are the rules regarding using a 20AMP rated recepticle on a 15AMP cct? I want to add a recepticle right next to the panel, and I have some 14-2 and a spare 20AMP GFI recepticle. I know you can use a 15AMP recepticle on a 20AMP cct, but can it work the other way around?

1. Yes, there is a reason. If the receptacle was removed, the effective ground fault path would be interrupted.

2. And no, you can't put a 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit. You can put a 15A recpectacle on a 20A mulitoutlet circuit but not the other way around.

jwhite 01-13-2008 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris75 (Post 88008)
Only if your receptacle was a single receptacle on an individual branch circuit would it be allowed to install a 20 amp receptacle on a 15 amp branch circuit.

I think you have this area confused. You cannot install a 20 amp recepticle on a 15 amp circuit ever..... That would be a violation of both 210.21(B)(3) and 210.24

To quote one of our most esteemed members .... "Please understand the code before shouting out wrongful information.":thumbup:

I am not trying to be cruel. What you have confused is this. You are allowed to put 15 amp duplex recs on a 20 amp circuit, but you cannot put a single 15 amp rec on a 20 amp circuit. 210.21(B)(1)

In any case the other poster was also wrong. You cannot put your spare 20 amp duplex recs on a 15 amp circuit...... You are right about that part.

jwhite 01-13-2008 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arichard21 (Post 88035)
I am still a bit confused. I am trying to get opinions from people as to WHY they dont make recepticles that have 2 ground screws on them to feed through the same way that the hots and neutrals are.

It would be a code violation for the grounding continuity to depend on a device. The code reference is above.

handyman78 01-13-2008 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arichard21 (Post 88035)
I am still a bit confused. I am trying to get opinions from people as to WHY they dont make recepticles that have 2 ground screws on them to feed through the same way that the hots and neutrals are.

As I mentioned before, I think it was a later thought after ground connections came into being. Duplex receptacle jumpers can be broken to use each half of a duplex for different purposes- the ground connection is not to be broken for any reason.

chris75 01-13-2008 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwhite (Post 88043)
I think you have this area confused. You cannot install a 20 amp recepticle on a 15 amp circuit ever..... That would be a violation of both 210.21(B)(3) and 210.24

To quote one of our most esteemed members .... "Please understand the code before shouting out wrongful information.":thumbup:

I am not trying to be cruel. What you have confused is this. You are allowed to put 15 amp duplex recs on a 20 amp circuit, but you cannot put a single 15 amp rec on a 20 amp circuit. 210.21(B)(1)

In any case the other poster was also wrong. You cannot put your spare 20 amp duplex recs on a 15 amp circuit...... You are right about that part.

umm buddy, try reading the code, you CAN install a SINGLE 15 amp receptacle on a 20 amp Individual branch circuit, read 210.21(B)(1) and tell me that you cannot!!!

210.21(B)(3) is for two or more receptacles or outlets, I dont know why guys have a hard time with this section... a duplex would fall under two or more receptacles, a single round receptacle would not!

[EDIT] Should have read SINGLE 20 amp receptacle on a 15 amp Individual branch circuit.

HouseHelper 01-13-2008 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris75 (Post 88053)
umm buddy, try reading the code, you CAN install a SINGLE 15 amp receptacle on a 20 amp INDIvidual branch circuit, read 210.21(B)(1) and tell me that you cannot!!!

210.21(B)(3) is for two or more receptacles or outlets

You can as long as there are more than one. You cannot put a single 15a receptacle on a 20A circuit and have it be the only receptacle on that circuit.

J. V. 01-13-2008 12:46 PM

If the breaker is 20 amp and the wire is #12 you can put a 15 amp duplex receptacle on this circuit. The single receptacle on a individual branch circuit is the exception. This clarifys Art 210.21. The article states " Outlet devices shall have an ampere rating that is not less than the load to be served and shall comply with 210.21(A) and (B)". Load to be served is the key phrase and has nothing to do with the breaker size. It is correct that you cannot use a 20 amp breaker on #14 wire, but the receptacle can be either 15 or 20 amp.
Single grounding screws are part of the reason I pigtail recept's.


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