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Old 08-30-2011, 07:47 AM   #1
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(2) 20A circuits, GFCI


Just double checking before I finish this.

Two 20A 110/120volt circuits run to a shed. They must be GFCI protected.

I realize that if both hot's are out of phase, you could run a single neutral (i.e, 12/3) however since the GFCI is required, there is no way to bond the neutral (that I know of) between the panel and the shed, therefore 12/2/2 must be used to provide two neutrals, and TWO GFCI breakers must be used.

Correct?

I know some 240volt GFCI breakers exist, but I imagine they are strictly for 240volt applications and could not be used to provide two 110volt branch circuits?

-- Joe

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Old 08-30-2011, 07:58 AM   #2
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(2) 20A circuits, GFCI


Yiu could run 12/3 to the shed. At the first box, splice and pigtail the neutral and wirenut one hot to hot wire to other location . The one hot and the pigtail at the 1st box will go to 1st gfi recpt, at the other location the other hot and neutral will go to gfi recpt

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Old 08-30-2011, 08:03 AM   #3
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(2) 20A circuits, GFCI


You may not run 2 separate circuits to the shed.

Run the 12/3 like you said. Use a 2 pole 20 amp breaker.

Put in a 2 pole switch in shed as a disconnect.

Pig tail neutral and put in 2 GFCI receptacles.
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Old 08-30-2011, 08:06 AM   #4
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(2) 20A circuits, GFCI


Quote:
Originally Posted by NJMarine View Post
Yiu could run 12/3 to the shed. At the first box, splice and pigtail the neutral and wirenut one hot to hot wire to other location . The one hot and the pigtail at the 1st box will go to 1st gfi recpt, at the other location the other hot and neutral will go to gfi recpt
Need a disconnecting means.
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Old 08-30-2011, 08:10 AM   #5
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(2) 20A circuits, GFCI


Quote:
Originally Posted by Code05 View Post
You may not run 2 separate circuits to the shed.

Run the 12/3 like you said. Use a 2 pole 20 amp breaker.

Put in a 2 pole switch in shed as a disconnect.

Pig tail neutral and put in 2 GFCI receptacles.
The inspector requested I put two separate circuits in the shed. I put an approved disconnect in the shed, and ran two ungrounded, and two neutral conductors, and a ground to the dwelling in schedule 40 (using thwn/2). That rough in was inspected and approved by the inspector.

I need to run the final supply from the box in the dwelling, 100 feet to the main panel. I'd like to run NM.

He (the inspector) wants GFCI breakers. I don't get why, as a simple GFCI outlet on each circuit would have been fine in my opinion.

I don't argue with inspectors. I wanted to just run a single circuit.

-- Joe
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Old 08-30-2011, 08:21 AM   #6
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(2) 20A circuits, GFCI


So the inspector is requiring you to violate the NEC and add unnecessary costs to a project?

I would argue my a$$ off.
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Old 08-30-2011, 08:49 AM   #7
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(2) 20A circuits, GFCI


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Originally Posted by Code05 View Post
So the inspector is requiring you to violate the NEC and add unnecessary costs to a project?

I would argue my a$$ off.
This is typical. I don't argue, because you can't win.

For reference, which table in the NEC prohibits two circuits to a shed?

That wasn't the issue I had with the design. I figured as long as you had a common disconnect it was fine.

-- Joe
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Old 08-30-2011, 08:52 AM   #8
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(2) 20A circuits, GFCI


II. Buildings or Other Structures Supplied by a
Feeder(s) or Branch Circuit(s)
225.30 Number of Supplies. A building or other structure
that is served by a branch circuit or feeder on the load side
of a service disconnecting means shall be supplied by only
one feeder or branch circuit unless permitted in 225.30(A)
through (E). For the purpose of this section, a multiwire
branch circuit shall be considered a single circuit.

Where a branch circuit or feeder originates in these
additional buildings or other structures, only one feeder or
branch circuit shall be permitted to supply power back to
the original building or structure, unless permitted in
225.30(A) through (E).
For the purpose of this section, a multiwire branch circuit
shall be considered a single circuit.
(A) Special Conditions. Additional feeders or branch circuits
shall be permitted to supply the following:
(1) Fire pumps
(2) Emergency systems
(3) Legally required standby systems
(4) Optional standby systems
(5) Parallel power production systems
(6) Systems designed for connection to multiple sources of
supply for the purpose of enhanced reliability
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Old 08-30-2011, 08:55 AM   #9
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(2) 20A circuits, GFCI


Quote:
Originally Posted by anesthes View Post
This is typical. I don't argue, because you can't win.

-- Joe
No this is atypicle. Most inspectors would red tag you for 2 circuits because you do not meet any of the exceptions.
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Old 08-30-2011, 09:04 AM   #10
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(2) 20A circuits, GFCI


Quote:
Originally Posted by Code05 View Post
No this is atypicle. Most inspectors would red tag you for 2 circuits because you do not meet any of the exceptions.
'A building or other structure
that is served by a branch circuit or feeder on the load side
of a service disconnecting'

My interpretation, and I think his, was that if you have a service disconnect in the structure this doesn't apply. One of the things he inspected, was that my shut off switch in the shed was an 'approved disconnect device'. I believe this falls under the 'documented switching procedure'. No?

-- Joe
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Old 08-30-2011, 09:11 AM   #11
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(2) 20A circuits, GFCI


Quote:
Originally Posted by anesthes View Post
'A building or other structure
that is served by a branch circuit or feeder on the load side
of a service disconnecting'

My interpretation, and I think his, was that if you have a service disconnect in the structure this doesn't apply. One of the things he inspected, was that my shut off switch in the shed was an 'approved disconnect device'. I believe this falls under the 'documented switching procedure'. No?

-- Joe
Not a chance. Not even close. You are both wrong.
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Old 08-30-2011, 09:23 AM   #12
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(2) 20A circuits, GFCI


Quote:
Originally Posted by Code05 View Post
Not a chance. Not even close. You are both wrong.
So 'Documented safe switching procedures are established and maintained for disconnection.' applies to what scenario ?



-- Joe
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Old 08-30-2011, 09:31 AM   #13
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(2) 20A circuits, GFCI


Quote:
Originally Posted by anesthes View Post
So 'Documented safe switching procedures are established and maintained for disconnection.' applies to what scenario ?



-- Joe
A remote disconnect.

225.32 Location. The disconnecting means shall be installed
either inside or outside of the building or structure
served or where the conductors pass through the building or
structure. The disconnecting means shall be at a readily
accessible location nearest the point of entrance of the conductors.
For the purposes of this section, the requirements
in 230.6 shall be utilized.

Exception No. 1: For installations under single management,
where documented safe switching procedures are established
and maintained for disconnection, and where the
installation is monitored by qualified individuals, the disconnecting
means shall be permitted to be located elsewhere
on the premises.



Your disconnect only meets this requirement.

225.36 Suitable for Service Equipment. The disconnecting
means specified in 225.31 shall be suitable for use as
service equipment.

Exception: For garages and outbuildings on residential
property, a snap switch or a set of 3-way or 4-way snap
switches shall be permitted as the disconnecting means.


A 2 pole switch would have legal with a 12/3.
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Old 08-30-2011, 09:41 AM   #14
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(2) 20A circuits, GFCI


Quote:
Originally Posted by Code05 View Post
A remote disconnect.
Attached is what I'm talking about, underlined in red. I've seen numerous books regarding the NEC that appear to have this exception explained. ?

-- Joe
Attached Thumbnails
(2) 20A circuits, GFCI-nec-25.30.jpg  
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Old 08-30-2011, 09:54 AM   #15
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(2) 20A circuits, GFCI


Quote:
Originally Posted by anesthes View Post
So 'Documented safe switching procedures are established and maintained for disconnection.' applies to what scenario ?



-- Joe

My bad, you were referring to this:

(E) Documented Switching Procedures. Additional feeders
or branch circuits shall be permitted to supply installations
installations under single management where documented safe
switching procedures are established and maintained for
disconnection.



I have never heard of a residential application that would apply. This a commercial application that involves electricians, safety officers, and management to satisfy the building department and OSHA.


Agriculture like farms and dairies can use this exception also in many cases.


Last edited by Code05; 08-30-2011 at 09:58 AM.
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