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Old 03-20-2011, 08:51 AM   #16
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14 amp or 12 amp wiring


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Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
For many things it certainly does. Just look at refrigerators, A/C's and old CRT type TV's.
Actually, CRT's vs LCD are one that is misunderstood. While like to like, a 21" CRT draws far more than a 21" LCD, many screens sizes are getting bigger and bigger. The larger LCD and Plasma tv's can draw up to 4 times what the CRT's used to.

Here is consumer reports annual estimate for power usage($). Notice that a 37" LCD draws as much as a 36" tube (largest size made). However, 37" LCD is now small.

PRODUCT ANNUAL COST
20-cu.-ft. refrigerator (a newer top-freezer) $50
25-cu.-ft. refrigerator (a newer side-by-side) 65
32-inch picture-tube 40
36-inch picture-tube 50
37-inch LCD 50
40-inch LCD 55
56-inch rear-projection 65
42-inch plasma, 720p 70
52-inch LCD 80
50-inch plasma, 720p 80
50-inch plasma, 1080p 110

I agree that appliances (white goods) are more efficient. Their size and usage really isn't changing. In those cases, it means less draw than before. Add to it that many kids now have computers (200-1000w), xboxes(200w) and other items including TV's in their rooms and it adds up, even if they are more efficient.

My point in all of this is efficiency is nice to know. But when you layout a circuit, you need to consider load. I would plan for more load, not less, in the future.


Last edited by Marty1Mc; 03-20-2011 at 09:00 AM. Reason: clarification
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Old 03-20-2011, 09:56 AM   #17
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14 amp or 12 amp wiring


We have a house built in 1948. It was wired with 2 wire BX through out. I just got done completely rewireing the entire house. I used 12 gauge for everything. I left the BX for the upstairs lights only because of the difficulty in replacing the switch circuits. For me it was a lot easier to do everything in 12 gauge rather than by a whole roll of 14 just for the basement lights. I also used 15A recepticals with 20A breakers. Checked with an electrician and was told that was acceptable. Also 15A recepticals are a a lot cheaper than 20A. In the end the house started out with 4 breakers total for the whole house (one being a 50A for the stove). When I got done I have 18 breakers to meet code and passed city inspection too!!
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Old 03-20-2011, 10:09 AM   #18
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14 amp or 12 amp wiring


I would do many separate 15 amp circuits (like maybe 5 max per circuit), and a couple 20 amp dedicated circuits at places where you think could possibly be used in the future. Having a 20 amp circuit near a window is a good idea as it could accommodate an AC unit for example. Probably less likely in a basement though. Good idea to have a 20 amp dedicated circuit for a treadmill too if you have one or plan to. try to see if you can find a place that sells bigger bulk rolls, and see if it's cheaper to just buy a big roll of 12 then two different wire types, and just do everything with 12. At least in the future you could upgrade a circuit if you need to. Do lighting on 14 though, the odds that you'll need 12 on lighting are slim, and if you did, you'd be scared to turn the lights on because it would cost too much. :P
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Old 03-20-2011, 12:01 PM   #19
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14 amp or 12 amp wiring


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Originally Posted by Speedy Petey
Unless you are in Canada this is not true.
Where are you getting your facts from???
Amazingly, I am!

I told him to buy a codebook for homeowners for his area. I guess the real idea here is to give him 15 different ways to show him how to wire his basement so when the local inspector comes - everything is based on "what I read on the Internet".
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Old 03-20-2011, 12:04 PM   #20
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14 amp or 12 amp wiring


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Originally Posted by cschwehr View Post
I guess the real idea here is to give him 15 different ways to show him how to wire his basement so when the local inspector comes - everything is based on "what I read on the Internet".
Or we can just give him the facts for his area and let him decide. This is where having your location in your profile REALLY helps.
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Old 03-20-2011, 12:08 PM   #21
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14 amp or 12 amp wiring


Quote:
Originally Posted by Marty1Mc
Appliances are becoming more efficient, but the average draw is higher for many items. Microwaves are efficient, but 20 yrs ago a large microwave was 250 Watts (I had one), now a small one is rated at over 700w and many are 1100 watts. If you look at computers, the average power supply required went from under 200w a few years ago to over 500 now. Even TV's while getting more efficient, are becoming bigger, screens while more efficient draw more as well. California is actually looking at limits due to draw and how many.
Microwaves also should have a dedicated circuit nowadays.
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Old 03-20-2011, 12:15 PM   #22
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14 amp or 12 amp wiring


Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedy Petey
Or we can just give him the facts for his area and let him decide. This is where having your location in your profile REALLY helps.
Our you could actually add to the conversation. I mostly see you poking at my points or others versus adding information. All your comments in this thread haven't addressed the OP at all.

Do you think it is best practice to put a 15A rated receptacle on a circuit that is rated for 20A in the case of a fault on a device? I understand for regular draw, the devices are rated for 15 or less, and then even inrush is covered, but my question stands.
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Old 03-20-2011, 12:50 PM   #23
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14 amp or 12 amp wiring


Do you think it is best practice to put a 15A rated receptacle on a circuit that is rated for 20A in the case of a fault on a device?

What does it have to do with a fault on a device? Are you thinking fault as in overload and the 20 amp receptacles are heavier duty? They are only different in that they accept t-slot type plugs. No matter which ones you choose I would always recommend the better grade receptacles and not the 38 cent cheap ones in the HD or Lowes bin.
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Old 03-20-2011, 01:07 PM   #24
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14 amp or 12 amp wiring


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Originally Posted by teamo
Do you think it is best practice to put a 15A rated receptacle on a circuit that is rated for 20A in the case of a fault on a device?

What does it have to do with a fault on a device? Are you thinking fault as in overload and the 20 amp receptacles are heavier duty? They are only different in that they accept t-slot type plugs. No matter which ones you choose I would always recommend the better grade receptacles and not the 38 cent cheap ones in the HD or Lowes bin.
Based what I see here, it's a case where you're justifying money on wire but not on plugs. Where is the 20A AFCI breaker in all this?

The ideas spewed here seem excessive, 5 plugs per circuit on a 20A breaker with 12ga wiring and 15A plugs. If you're burning money, can I have some?

If we're burning money, then putting a t-slot 20A isn't breaking the bank since now people here are talking about how device draw is going up. When are the 5-20P plugs on plasma's coming. lol
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Old 03-20-2011, 06:25 PM   #25
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14 amp or 12 amp wiring


I told him to buy a codebook for homeowners for his area. I guess the real idea here is to give him 15 different ways to show him how to wire his basement so when the local inspector comes - everything is based on "what I read on the Internet".

You are right sir. Many times there are 15 different ways to do things that aren't necessarily wrong. You can use lots of different methods and still be legal under the code. Just curious what is a code book for homeowners? The code book is the code book whether you are a homeowner or an electrician. What he has read here is lots of advice from people who know a lot more about wiring than you appear to know.
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Old 03-20-2011, 07:21 PM   #26
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14 amp or 12 amp wiring


Quote:
Originally Posted by teamo
I told him to buy a codebook for homeowners for his area. I guess the real idea here is to give him 15 different ways to show him how to wire his basement so when the local inspector comes - everything is based on "what I read on the Internet".

You are right sir. Many times there are 15 different ways to do things that aren't necessarily wrong. You can use lots of different methods and still be legal under the code. Just curious what is a code book for homeowners? The code book is the code book whether you are a homeowner or an electrician. What he has read here is lots of advice from people who know a lot more about wiring than you appear to know.
Wow, I just got schooled by a guy who is obviously interested in trying to insult me and push buttons more than give some serious advice on the issue or at least debate the issue fairly. How many basements have you wired? Like, seriously? Your trades-style bravado doesn't really impress or bother me actually.

I'm saying it's a waste of money and time to start putting banks of five plugs on 12ga wire. There is, here is Canada, and I've seen it some locales in the US too - a smaller, easier to understand version of the electrical code printed for homeowners. It's available in home centers to make it easier for homeowners to do their own work safely. There also isn't just "The code book" as a general note, there are a variety of national and international standards that local jurisdictions adopt... Like the NEC in the US.

That's the reason in the US you can put a 15A plug on a 20A circuit and not in Canada. As a note though, you know more about wiring because I think it's unnecessary to advise what you're recommending? The difference between what I am recommending and what you are is either plugs or a breaker for 12ga. That's it! If you want to future proof a circuit and use 10ga, the plug will accept it - do whatever. I'd wire the basement in 14ga all the way around and dedicate plugs for things like A/V and a freezer. You sided with 12ga on a 20 and want to use smaller counts. The guy made his decision, and he's done.
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Old 03-20-2011, 08:10 PM   #27
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14 amp or 12 amp wiring


I am not trying to insult you at all. I didn't recommend anything about 5 receptacles per circuit. I am just trying to get some questions answered by you for some of the things that you said.
You sided with 12ga on a 20 and want to use smaller counts.
I never mentioned anything about using 12 gauge and smaller counts. Perhaps someone else did.
I only asked a few questions about what you meant by fault protected being better using a 20 amp receptacle vs. a 15 amp receptacle.
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Old 03-20-2011, 09:45 PM   #28
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14 amp or 12 amp wiring


not to stir the pot any more but. Years ago I remember reading an article about super insulated green homes (or maybe heard this at a utility workshop on them) that wiring all 120 vac circuits with 12 gauge will reduce IR loses in a typical house that would pay for the upgrade in new construction. for retrofit this may not be the case. I do not remember the time frame for payback. any thoughts!!!!

bernie
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Old 03-21-2011, 01:16 AM   #29
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14 amp or 12 amp wiring


Quote:
Originally Posted by teamo
I am not trying to insult you at all. I didn't recommend anything about 5 receptacles per circuit. I am just trying to get some questions answered by you for some of the things that you said.
"You sided with 12ga on a 20 and want to use smaller counts."
I never mentioned anything about using 12 gauge and smaller counts. Perhaps someone else did.
I only asked a few questions about what you meant by fault protected being better using a 20 amp receptacle vs. a 15 amp receptacle.
I'm sure you could likely put a 30A breaker on a 15A receptacle and run it with a bastardized cord above 20A on 12ga wire free air, should you? 15A plugs from what I've spent researching will accommodate 12-14ga (Leviton Decora 15A) wire, but nowhere are they rated by UL or the CSA to 20A. I don't care what minimum code ignores - it's not rated for it. I guess you're looking for me to tell you the terminal thickness is the same on both receptacles so it's OK to use it. I can't even get that info readily, so it's all a lot of air thus far. Will your house insurance approve it since NEC code doesn't mention it? There might not even be a case of fire registered with the NEC about this topic, ever.

http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/xxlcf...Lpmnfg8n5yKp2A..

Where does it show 20A? And the reason I picked Leviton is they're common brand - I doubt Cooper lists the terminal thickness either.

This is a waste of time, d*** swinging contest to somehow prove the new guy on the board is an idiot... I'm not. I follow ratings, even if the 20A plug is the same. Until Leviton or Cooper rates a 15A receptacle to 20A feed-through with the CSA or UL I won't be doing it. GFCI's have it - plugs could too if it was rated. Use a 15A receptacle on a 20A all the time, I don't care. lol
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Old 03-21-2011, 01:23 AM   #30
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14 amp or 12 amp wiring


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Originally Posted by bernie963
not to stir the pot any more but. Years ago I remember reading an article about super insulated green homes (or maybe heard this at a utility workshop on them) that wiring all 120 vac circuits with 12 gauge will reduce IR loses in a typical house that would pay for the upgrade in new construction. for retrofit this may not be the case. I do not remember the time frame for payback. any thoughts!!!!

bernie
I guess you'd have less resistance and less VD on runs. I would venture to guess the savings are negligible unless you plan on living there for a long time. If you get a deal on wire, go for it... If copper is high, I'd be trying to be more efficient when pulling your runs and simply use less energy after it's built. This goes down with balancing your panel to save a ton of energy on your bills, in practice, it's more safety than savings in my opinion.

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