Go Back   DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum > Home Improvement > Electrical

CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY...IT'S FREE!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 02-05-2014, 10:26 PM   #16
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Central Indiana (USA)
Posts: 1,318
Rewards Points: 500
Default

14-2 wire


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
The spacing requirement is such that no space is more than 2' from a receptacle, not every foot. Any countertop over 12" needs a receptacle. There are more details also. Google Mike Holt kitchen receptacle spacing for a nice graphic.
Jim,

Thank you, I meant to say for a "countertop of 12" or more", instead of "every 12-inches".

I had never heard of the 2' spacing, though I see it now.

Thanks.

__________________
Installation is the Reverse of Removal.
sirsparksalot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2014, 11:37 PM   #17
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 48
Rewards Points: 25
Default

14-2 wire


Quote:
Originally Posted by sgip2000 View Post
Even without an inspection, using a microwave and one other device could easily trip a 15A breaker. Could be quite annoying! I agree with Speedy Petey.
You are correct on that one. Someone decided to wire my house such that everything in the kitchen and the stairwell/basement lighting is on 1 15 amp breaker. Microwave and dishwasher can not be run together. And if it's night-time when that mistake is made, I have to fumble with a flashlight to get to the basement panel.
venator260 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2014, 12:19 AM   #18
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Central Indiana (USA)
Posts: 1,318
Rewards Points: 500
Default

14-2 wire


Quote:
Originally Posted by venator260 View Post
You are correct on that one. Someone decided to wire my house such that everything in the kitchen and the stairwell/basement lighting is on 1 15 amp breaker. Microwave and dishwasher can not be run together. And if it's night-time when that mistake is made, I have to fumble with a flashlight to get to the basement panel.
Are you saying the Microwave, DW, ad lighting are on the same circuit?

Time to fix it right.

Definitely take the Micro and DW off the same circuit. If the mic is a countertop, I believe it can be used on the SABC, but if it's over the stove, must be dedicated, I believe.

DW should be dedicated as well. I think, at most, it can share a Disposal circuit, but wait for confirm on that from the pros, cause I'm often WRONG
__________________
Installation is the Reverse of Removal.
sirsparksalot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2014, 12:27 AM   #19
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 48
Rewards Points: 25
Default

14-2 wire


Quote:
Originally Posted by sirsparksalot View Post

Are you saying the Microwave, DW, ad lighting are on the same circuit?

Time to fix it right.

Definitely take the Micro and DW off the same circuit. If the mic is a countertop, I believe it can be used on the SABC, but if it's over the stove, must be dedicated, I believe.

DW should be dedicated as well. I think, at most, it can share a Disposal circuit, but wait for confirm on that from the pros, cause I'm often WRONG
Yep. That's exactly what I'm saying. To the credit of the previous owners, we (my wife and I) have a portable dishwasher, so the kitchen wasn't wired for one. I still don't really understand why the entire kitchen and the basement lighting are tied together.

I'm finishing up rewiring a circuit that was only connected to a few infrequently used things. Its been good practice, and a learn as you go experience. My next project is to dedicate an outlet to the dishwasher on its own 20A breaker as well as give the rest of the kitchen its own 20A breaker and leave the basement lights on the existing 15A breaker.
venator260 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2014, 12:31 AM   #20
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Central Indiana (USA)
Posts: 1,318
Rewards Points: 500
Default

14-2 wire


Quote:
Originally Posted by venator260 View Post
Yep. That's exactly what I'm saying. To the credit of the previous owners, we (my wife and I) have a portable dishwasher, so the kitchen wasn't wired for one. I still don't really understand why the entire kitchen and the basement lighting are tied together.

I'm finishing up rewiring a circuit that was only connected to a few infrequently used things. Its been good practice, and a learn as you go experience. My next project is to dedicate an outlet to the dishwasher on its own 20A breaker as well as give the rest of the kitchen its own 20A breaker and leave the basement lights on the existing 15A breaker.
Lighting can share circuits, even 15 amp, but receptacles in the kitchen must be dedicated to the kitchen and must be 20 amp.
__________________
Installation is the Reverse of Removal.
sirsparksalot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2014, 12:39 AM   #21
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 48
Rewards Points: 25
Default

14-2 wire


Quote:
Originally Posted by sirsparksalot View Post

Lighting can share circuits, even 15 amp, but receptacles in the kitchen must be dedicated to the kitchen and must be 20 amp.
Good to know. I was going to make sure my plan was up to code before actually doing it. No matter, my panel has plenty of open slots.
venator260 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2014, 08:26 AM   #22
Retired from the grind
 
gregzoll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Midwest - Central Illinois
Posts: 14,340
Rewards Points: 2,342
Default

14-2 wire


Quote:
Originally Posted by sirsparksalot View Post
Are you saying the Microwave, DW, ad lighting are on the same circuit?

Time to fix it right.

Definitely take the Micro and DW off the same circuit. If the mic is a countertop, I believe it can be used on the SABC, but if it's over the stove, must be dedicated, I believe.

DW should be dedicated as well. I think, at most, it can share a Disposal circuit, but wait for confirm on that from the pros, cause I'm often WRONG
Correct on the countertop mic. I have a portable DW, with the Microwave sitting on top of it. We finally turned off the heater on it, due to if the heat was on and the DW was running, someone then decided to run the Mic, it would trip the 20 amp counter-top circuit.

In the case of the Counter-top Mic, & portable DW, that outlet would count as one of your SABC's, due to they are not fixed in place appliances.
__________________
Ren: Now listen, Cadet. I've got a job for you. See this button? Ren: Don't touch it! It's the History Eraser button, you fool! Stimpy: So what'll happen? Ren: That's just it. We don't know. Maybe something bad, maybe something good. I guess we'll never know, 'cause you're going to guard it. You won't touch it, will you?
gregzoll is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2014, 08:30 AM   #23
Retired from the grind
 
gregzoll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Midwest - Central Illinois
Posts: 14,340
Rewards Points: 2,342
Default

14-2 wire


Quote:
Originally Posted by sirsparksalot View Post
Lighting can share circuits, even 15 amp, but receptacles in the kitchen must be dedicated to the kitchen and must be 20 amp.
The counter-top must stay in the Kitchen, but the 20 amp base board outlets can extend into the pantry, dining area, and if separate dish washing area, they can carry into that area.

Just cannot serve say an outlet right off the dining in the hallway or Living room.

I kept my Kitchen lighting on one 15 amp circuit, the Living Room comes off the 15 amp for the outlets, since I am not wanting to change the old BX for that circuit over, then the other half (two bedrooms, hallway, bath, powered attic exhaust fan, CO/Smokes), are all on one 15 amp circuit.

Really depending on how large the OP home is, along with their Kitchen, what they do out in their garage (welding, wood working, air compressor powered tools), Heat Pump, Furnace with heat strips, will dictate how many circuits they really need, along with panel/service size.
__________________
Ren: Now listen, Cadet. I've got a job for you. See this button? Ren: Don't touch it! It's the History Eraser button, you fool! Stimpy: So what'll happen? Ren: That's just it. We don't know. Maybe something bad, maybe something good. I guess we'll never know, 'cause you're going to guard it. You won't touch it, will you?
gregzoll is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2014, 09:07 AM   #24
Master Electrician
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Indiana
Posts: 2,951
Rewards Points: 2,158
Default

14-2 wire


Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post
The counter-top must stay in the Kitchen, but the 20 amp base board outlets can extend into the pantry, dining area, and if separate dish washing area, they can carry into that area.

Just cannot serve say an outlet right off the dining in the hallway or Living room.

I kept my Kitchen lighting on one 15 amp circuit, the Living Room comes off the 15 amp for the outlets, since I am not wanting to change the old BX for that circuit over, then the other half (two bedrooms, hallway, bath, powered attic exhaust fan, CO/Smokes), are all on one 15 amp circuit.

Really depending on how large the OP home is, along with their Kitchen, what they do out in their garage (welding, wood working, air compressor powered tools), Heat Pump, Furnace with heat strips, will dictate how many circuits they really need, along with panel/service size.
The SABCs do not have to stay at the countertops. They may extend into a dining room, pantry or other areas required to be served by the SABC.
brric is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to brric For This Useful Post:
DBoone (04-06-2014), Jim Port (02-06-2014), sirsparksalot (02-06-2014)
Old 02-06-2014, 10:14 AM   #25
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Central Indiana (USA)
Posts: 1,318
Rewards Points: 500
Default

14-2 wire


Quote:
Originally Posted by brric View Post
The SABCs do not have to stay at the countertops. They may extend into a dining room, pantry or other areas required to be served by the SABC.
So, for example, the countertop receptacles could be on one circuit, and a second circuit could supply the kitchen perimeter receptacles, and this would fulfill the requirements of 2 SABCs?
__________________
Installation is the Reverse of Removal.
sirsparksalot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2014, 10:45 AM   #26
Retired from the grind
 
gregzoll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Midwest - Central Illinois
Posts: 14,340
Rewards Points: 2,342
Default

14-2 wire


Quote:
Originally Posted by brric View Post
The SABCs do not have to stay at the countertops. They may extend into a dining room, pantry or other areas required to be served by the SABC.
The Term SABC is being used too much as a blank term these days. Under the way the NEC is written, they are only defining the Counter top as SABC circuits. When yes that any 20 amp circuit in the Kitchen/Food prep/dining/food storage areas can be defined as a SABC type circuit.

I only use the term SABC, to define the counter-top, and those outlets that are connected to that 20 amp circuit. Makes it easier to not confuse people that are not used to hearing the terms, due to when they think of the term SABC (Small Appliance Branch Circuit), they are only seeing in their mind the outlets around the perimeter of the countertop's, not those others that may feed off of them for the gas stove.
__________________
Ren: Now listen, Cadet. I've got a job for you. See this button? Ren: Don't touch it! It's the History Eraser button, you fool! Stimpy: So what'll happen? Ren: That's just it. We don't know. Maybe something bad, maybe something good. I guess we'll never know, 'cause you're going to guard it. You won't touch it, will you?
gregzoll is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2014, 10:50 AM   #27
Master Electrician
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Indiana
Posts: 2,951
Rewards Points: 2,158
Default

14-2 wire


Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post
The Term SABC is being used too much as a blank term these days. Under the way the NEC is written, they are only defining the Counter top as SABC circuits. When yes that any 20 amp circuit in the Kitchen/Food prep/dining/food storage areas can be defined as a SABC type circuit.

I only use the term SABC, to define the counter-top, and those outlets that are connected to that 20 amp circuit. Makes it easier to not confuse people that are not used to hearing the terms, due to when they think of the term SABC (Small Appliance Branch Circuit), they are only seeing in their mind the outlets around the perimeter of the countertop's, not those others that may feed off of them for the gas stove.
Sorry you are so misinformed. You can not use your own definitions to give out incorrect information.
brric is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to brric For This Useful Post:
DBoone (04-06-2014)
Old 02-06-2014, 10:54 AM   #28
Retired from the grind
 
gregzoll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Midwest - Central Illinois
Posts: 14,340
Rewards Points: 2,342
Default

14-2 wire


Quote:
Originally Posted by sirsparksalot View Post
So, for example, the countertop receptacles could be on one circuit, and a second circuit could supply the kitchen perimeter receptacles, and this would fulfill the requirements of 2 SABCs?
Correct, in the eyes of the NEC. If you look at all of the drawings, including what is in the NFPA 70 NEC Handbook, which is the thicker more in depth version of the regular NEC book.

The NEC Handbook is the one with the extra drawings, more in detail explanations of items, the Kitchen drawing shows two circuits, with all outlets in the Kitchen, served by those 20 amp circuits. With the exception of lighting, installed microwave, Dishwasher, Garbage Disposal, Trash Compactor, Range hood, it shows them having their own circuit.

My kitchen has three SABC's for the counter's. Two of them are single outlets only, due to one is used for the portable DW & Counter top Microwave. The third one that is on the wall opposite of the sink, serves two counters on each side of the stove, and the 120v power for the stove.

Then I have the 20 amp baseboard circuit, for the dining area, that also has the fridge plugged into it right now, due to I am not at the point of putting in the circuit for the fridge, due to back issues.

Personally if you were to go into 20 different homes, in twenty different areas, you will find that all 400 of those homes are going to be wired in different ways, for the Kitchen, bath and other areas.

It really comes down to how large is the Kitchen, how many people are in the home. If it is just one little old lady, with a 10'x10' Kitchen, small dining area, you will probably only find 2 20 amp circuits all together, and no dishwasher or disposal in that space. I took that example from my next door neighbor's home, due to that is exactly what is in her Kitchen.
__________________
Ren: Now listen, Cadet. I've got a job for you. See this button? Ren: Don't touch it! It's the History Eraser button, you fool! Stimpy: So what'll happen? Ren: That's just it. We don't know. Maybe something bad, maybe something good. I guess we'll never know, 'cause you're going to guard it. You won't touch it, will you?
gregzoll is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2014, 12:46 PM   #29
Licensed Electrician
 
k_buz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: SE Wisconsin
Posts: 4,343
Rewards Points: 2,006
Default

14-2 wire


Quote:
Originally Posted by sirsparksalot
So, for example, the countertop receptacles could be on one circuit, and a second circuit could supply the kitchen perimeter receptacles, and this would fulfill the requirements of 2 SABCs?
No, counter top recepts have to be served by 2 20A circuits. The perimeter recepts can be tapped off the counter recepts.
__________________
__________________________________________________ ______________
Answers based on the National Electric Code. Always check local amendments.


k_buz is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to k_buz For This Useful Post:
Speedy Petey (02-06-2014)
Old 02-06-2014, 03:26 PM   #30
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Central Indiana (USA)
Posts: 1,318
Rewards Points: 500
Default

14-2 wire


Quote:
Originally Posted by k_buz View Post
No, counter top recepts have to be served by 2 20A circuits. The perimeter recepts can be tapped off the counter recepts.
OK, so if code requires 2 individual circuits on the counter top, would this fulfill the 2 SABCs required?

__________________
Installation is the Reverse of Removal.
sirsparksalot is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
THWN wire; Gray pvc Conduit; and GFCI receptacles Buzzy Electrical 29 09-26-2012 03:41 AM
ceiling fan wicked97 Electrical 4 08-21-2011 09:12 AM
convert 3 wire range junction box to receptacle filby Electrical 0 06-05-2011 02:33 AM
HALP! Master/Remote Dimmer troubles! Confuserated Electrical 9 02-12-2010 04:30 PM
hooking up dryer....bronx ny code SURFBUG Appliances 6 10-14-2008 10:41 PM




Top of Page | View New Posts

Copyright © 2003-2014 Escalate Media. All Rights Reserved.