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Old 12-14-2007, 11:47 PM   #16
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12 gauge wire to 14 gauge on an outlet question


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Originally Posted by HouseHelper View Post
I used to run into this several years ago, before the colored sheathing was available. Unofficial reason was the inspectors couldn't tell the difference between 14 and 12 since it was all white, so they mandated 12ga only could be used.

i hate to be rude in here but if they cant tell the diffrence then they have no bussiness to look at it unless they have extra min to read the raised letter on the romax cables.

a good inspector should able tell by size alone with new romax's with older one all it take a extra second or two look around a little can able to see it.

Merci, Marc

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Old 12-15-2007, 10:45 AM   #17
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12 gauge wire to 14 gauge on an outlet question


Here is the addmendment.
Not sure why it copied like it did, but i fixed some of them

It is not allowed to extend a #14 circuit. If I can extend it, it must be #12.
That makes it like a hack job then.

NOW THEREfORE. 6E IT ORDAINED BY THE BOA~D Of COMMISSIONERS
OF COWETA COUNTY. AND
IT IS HEREBY ORDAINED BY THE AUTHORITY OF THE SAME THAT THE
COUNTY CODE OF ORDINANCES. CHAPTER 6 SECTION 6-4 BE AMENDED
AS FOllOWS:

Addendum to the National Electric Code. Article 220-3(b).
There shall be no more than 10 (ten) lights
or receptacles on anyone circuit.

Addendum to the National Electric Code. Article 210-52(b).
In kitchen Area - receptacles over counter
top or working space - not more than 2 (two)
outlets per circuit.

Refrigerator. dishwasher. or any motorized
applianceshall be on a designated circuit.

Addendum to the National Electric Code. Article 310-14.
No aluminum conductors shall be used other
than Service Entrance Cable. Exception: On
high amperage heat pump or electric furnace
with separate disconnects. aluminum conductor-type
SEU or SER. may be installed from the Service
Panel to a disconnect marked CO/ALR on line side.
load side wiring from disconnect to furnace and/or
heat pump shall be in copper only.

Addendum to the National Electric Code, Article 310-15.
#14 gauge wire shall not be allowed in Coweta County.

ATTEST:
AND PASSED, IN OPEN SESSION. THIS DAY OF
.1995- ~cd. ~k <
CHAIRMAN'
~.C> LL~ , ......-
DONE. RATIFIED,
..00... fb~"/
r~ lo~ CLERK
nIIT1
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Last edited by jbfan; 12-15-2007 at 10:52 AM. Reason: correct mistakes
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Old 12-17-2007, 11:32 AM   #18
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12 gauge wire to 14 gauge on an outlet question


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Originally Posted by jbfan View Post
14 not allowed in my area= 12ga + muilti switches = normal day
Even in the few areas it is allowed, I almost always run 12. I buy 14 by the 50' box

Recently purchased another home and discovered that much of it is in 14 gauge wiring with 15 amp circuits. My previous home had 12 ga. wiring with 20 amp + circuits. Frankly, I find the lighterweight 14 ga wiring on 15 amp circuits to be unsatisfactory and unable to handle routine household loads such as a refrigerator, toaster and coffee pot plugged in at the same time. Never had this problem in my previous home with 12 ga wiring and 20+ amp circuits.

I also had to pay for new dedicated cricuits in the garage so I could also have an extra refrigerator and freezer out there. it seems like I am constantly running into the need for more and more dedicated circuits in this house.

Wish I could pull out all the 14 ga wiring on 20 amp circuits in this new home and put in 12 ga. However that is not feasible without tearing apart walls, etc.
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Old 12-17-2007, 11:42 AM   #19
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12 gauge wire to 14 gauge on an outlet question


Irish, if you have a home with #14 wire circuits in a kitchen it is either REAL old or was not wired to code to begin with. #12/20A has been code for a very long time in kitchens and even before that it was standard practice.
Don't blame the #14 wire, blame the original installer.

Also, even a 20A circuit will trip with "a refrigerator, toaster and coffee pot plugged in at the same time", IF everything is running. Do the math and see what I mean. Just being plugged in means nothing.
If they didn't trip before it's because something was not running and the breaker was probably near full capacity. Also, all three of these items, running simultaneously, is NOT "routine".
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Answers based on the 2008 & 2011 NEC. If you're on the '14 already I feel sorry for you.
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Old 12-17-2007, 01:09 PM   #20
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12 gauge wire to 14 gauge on an outlet question


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Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
Irish, if you have a home with #14 wire circuits in a kitchen it is either REAL old or was not wired to code to begin with. #12/20A has been code for a very long time in kitchens and even before that it was standard practice.
Don't blame the #14 wire, blame the original installer.

Also, even a 20A circuit will trip with "a refrigerator, toaster and coffee pot plugged in at the same time", IF everything is running. Do the math and see what I mean. Just being plugged in means nothing.
If they didn't trip before it's because something was not running and the breaker was probably near full capacity. Also, all three of these items, running simultaneously, is NOT "routine".
Speedy, this house was built around 1994 (Indianapolis, Indiana area) and I wouldn't call that very old. and YES it has real 14 ga wiring on a lot of 15 amp circuits.

Oops! Made a mistake about the outer kitchen circuit...it is 20 AMP and not 15. You're absolutely correct--a 20 amp circuit can't handle a refrigerator, coffee pot and toaster all running at the same time.

looks like I am going to need another dedicated circuit for the kitchen just for my refrigerator. Not sure how an electrician will be able to install a dedicated circuit from the breaker panel in the garage to the kitchen without having to run ugly conduit which I don't want.

Last edited by Irishking23; 12-17-2007 at 01:36 PM.
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Old 12-17-2007, 02:56 PM   #21
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12 gauge wire to 14 gauge on an outlet question


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Originally Posted by Irishking23 View Post
Speedy, this house was built around 1994 (Indianapolis, Indiana area) and I wouldn't call that very old. and YES it has real 14 ga wiring on a lot of 15 amp circuits.

Oops! Made a mistake about the outer kitchen circuit...it is 20 AMP and not 15. You're absolutely correct--a 20 amp circuit can't handle a refrigerator, coffee pot and toaster all running at the same time.

looks like I am going to need another dedicated circuit for the kitchen just for my refrigerator. Not sure how an electrician will be able to install a dedicated circuit from the breaker panel in the garage to the kitchen without having to run ugly conduit which I don't want.
do you have access to the attic? or a basement?
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Old 12-17-2007, 03:50 PM   #22
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12 gauge wire to 14 gauge on an outlet question


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do you have access to the attic? or a basement?

yes there is a basement underneath the kitchen and there is a master bath and walk-in closet above the kitchen on the second floor.

It is no wonder that the circuit breaker for our outer kitchen wall tripped. It is a 20 amp circuit and the refrigerator, toaster, coffee maker, overhead lights, center island and other things are on that 20 amp circuit.

The coffee maker alone takes 1100 Watts and the toaster 1,800 Watts for a total of 2,900 watts running those 2 appliances. Divide 2,900 watts by 120 and that comes out to over 20 amps. That 20 amp circuit can’t handle a refrigerator and other things.
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Old 12-17-2007, 04:46 PM   #23
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12 gauge wire to 14 gauge on an outlet question


Quote:
Originally Posted by jbfan View Post
Here is the addmendment.
Not sure why it copied like it did, but i fixed some of them

It is not allowed to extend a #14 circuit. If I can extend it, it must be #12.
That makes it like a hack job then.

NOW THEREfORE. 6E IT ORDAINED BY THE BOA~D Of COMMISSIONERS
OF COWETA COUNTY. AND
IT IS HEREBY ORDAINED BY THE AUTHORITY OF THE SAME THAT THE
COUNTY CODE OF ORDINANCES. CHAPTER 6 SECTION 6-4 BE AMENDED
AS FOllOWS:

Addendum to the National Electric Code. Article 220-3(b).
There shall be no more than 10 (ten) lights
or receptacles on anyone circuit.

Addendum to the National Electric Code. Article 210-52(b).
In kitchen Area - receptacles over counter
top or working space - not more than 2 (two)
outlets per circuit.

Refrigerator. dishwasher. or any motorized
applianceshall be on a designated circuit.

Addendum to the National Electric Code. Article 310-14.
No aluminum conductors shall be used other
than Service Entrance Cable. Exception: On
high amperage heat pump or electric furnace
with separate disconnects. aluminum conductor-type
SEU or SER. may be installed from the Service
Panel to a disconnect marked CO/ALR on line side.
load side wiring from disconnect to furnace and/or
heat pump shall be in copper only.

Addendum to the National Electric Code, Article 310-15.
#14 gauge wire shall not be allowed in Coweta County.

ATTEST:
AND PASSED, IN OPEN SESSION. THIS DAY OF
.1995- ~cd. ~k <
CHAIRMAN'
~.C> LL~ , ......-
DONE. RATIFIED,
..00... fb~"/
r~ lo~ CLERK
nIIT1

JB's problem is that he lives in Coweta County, GA.

Andy
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Old 12-17-2007, 04:48 PM   #24
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12 gauge wire to 14 gauge on an outlet question


Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishking23 View Post
It is no wonder that the circuit breaker for our outer kitchen wall tripped. It is a 20 amp circuit and the refrigerator, toaster, coffee maker, overhead lights, center island and other things are on that 20 amp circuit.
If this house was built in 1994 this is/was an extreme code violation.
__________________
Sometimes I feel like if I answer any more questions it is like someone trying to climb over a fence to jump off a bridge and me giving them a boost.
Answers based on the 2008 & 2011 NEC. If you're on the '14 already I feel sorry for you.
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Old 12-17-2007, 05:10 PM   #25
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12 gauge wire to 14 gauge on an outlet question


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If this house was built in 1994 this is/was an extreme code violation.
the Home Inspector never pointed any of this out either.
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Old 12-17-2007, 05:15 PM   #26
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12 gauge wire to 14 gauge on an outlet question


I don't doubt it. Although this might not be in the SOP of many inspectors. Many have a set routine that does not cover electrical very thoroughly.
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Sometimes I feel like if I answer any more questions it is like someone trying to climb over a fence to jump off a bridge and me giving them a boost.
Answers based on the 2008 & 2011 NEC. If you're on the '14 already I feel sorry for you.
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Old 12-17-2007, 05:57 PM   #27
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12 gauge wire to 14 gauge on an outlet question


Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishking23 View Post
yes there is a basement underneath the kitchen and there is a master bath and walk-in closet above the kitchen on the second floor.
It SHOULD be fairly easy to run a dedicated cct to the fridge through the basement (if it is unfinished and/or it has a drop ceiling)
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Old 12-17-2007, 09:11 PM   #28
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12 gauge wire to 14 gauge on an outlet question


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Originally Posted by arichard21 View Post
It SHOULD be fairly easy to run a dedicated cct to the fridge through the basement (if it is unfinished and/or it has a drop ceiling)
I am afraid it won't be all that easy. The breaker panel is out in the garage which is on a slab foundation. The garage portion where the breaker panel is also sticks out several feet from the basement foundation under the main home.

On the main floor there is also a large laundry room and walk-in pantry between the breaker panel in the garage and the kitchen.

Wiring a house after it has been built can be a complete headache. I don't know why the original builder/installer didn't put in a separate 20 amp circuit for the kitchen refrigerator.

Last edited by Irishking23; 12-17-2007 at 09:51 PM.
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Old 12-18-2007, 09:15 AM   #29
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12 gauge wire to 14 gauge on an outlet question


If I should have started a new thread, please tell me, but this thread is closely related to my question.

Most of the outlets in my house are set up w/ 20 AMP breakers, 12 gauge copper wire, and 15 AMP outlets. Do the outlets have to be change to 20 AMP (or the breakers to 15 AMP)?

Also, some (all?) of the wires are connected to the outlets using the push holes in the back rather than the screws on the sides. It wasn't until today, while researching another issue, that I read that those holes should not be used for wires heavier than #12.
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Old 12-18-2007, 11:04 AM   #30
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12 gauge wire to 14 gauge on an outlet question


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Originally Posted by Potomac101 View Post
If I should have started a new thread, please tell me, but this thread is closely related to my question.

Most of the outlets in my house are set up w/ 20 AMP breakers, 12 gauge copper wire, and 15 AMP outlets. Do the outlets have to be change to 20 AMP (or the breakers to 15 AMP)?

Also, some (all?) of the wires are connected to the outlets using the push holes in the back rather than the screws on the sides. It wasn't until today, while researching another issue, that I read that those holes should not be used for wires heavier than #12.
Since you are here now! 15 amp recepticales are allowed to be used on 20 amp circuits as lonf as there are more than one.
How old is your house?
I can't remember it changed, but #12 used to be allowed to be backstabed.
If you are not having any problems, don't worry about it. If you have problems, then you know where to start looking!

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