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Old 01-02-2011, 02:58 PM   #16
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12/3 wire with ground


My kitchen is 8x12 & I have 3 SABC & a dedicated fridge circuit
It originally had only one circuit
Toaster = 850w, Microwave over 1100w, Toaster oven 1500w
Try running that on one 2400w circuit
Add in blender, a few crock pots, electric hot plate for breakfast & its impossible
You are not required to retrofit an older kitchen
But once you renovate yes you need 2 SABC
Its not about what you need or can get by with, its about what the next owner may need & whats required by code

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Old 01-02-2011, 03:02 PM   #17
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12/3 wire with ground


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Again According to the NEC 2008 the kitchen countertops need 2 dedicated 20amp gfci protected circuits. NEC does not state only kitchens over a certain size.

If you were to have done a complete rewire you would have had to bring it up to that standard. You however have not done so and are not required to do such!
disregard

Last edited by brric; 01-02-2011 at 03:15 PM.
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Old 01-02-2011, 03:07 PM   #18
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Well if it is being done to code as it should be. It must have 2 circuits serving the kitchen counter tops. We are here to encourage DIY's to do things in a professional and legal way, Thus we should only make recommendations as the code reads.
disregard.

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Old 01-02-2011, 03:15 PM   #19
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12/3 wire with ground


Not anyone is going to run all of those small appliances at the same time Dave. Show me someone that wants to do that, and I will show you how to start a fire with all of that load when the breaker fails. A 15 amp circuit will trip if you try to run a toaster and a microwave at the same time. A 20 amp circuit will trip if you try running a toaster, blender and Microwave, maybe lucky to run a toaster oven, or portable Dish Washer at the same time for maybe five minutes before the breaker fails with all of that load.

If it ever comes down when we go to sell the house, and the buyer is so wanting ACFI's and another GCFI to protect the circuit on the opposite side of the Kitchen, I may make that change, but for now, the one by the sink and the one on the opposite side of the Kitchen are sufficient, because the only one that would get used for a Toaster or Blender is to the Right of the sink. The one by the stove is there for convenience, same with the one behind the microwave for the portable Dishwasher & Microwave to plug in.

In the lines of what the OP is wanting to do, MWBC are great if wired correctly, and needing multiple circuits for GCFI protected it would work in this case. Running two separate circuits such as what they are wanting to do (GCFI & dedicated for a fridge) is not going to work, because as mentioned ,the GCFI does not like sharing the Neutral, same with ACFI's. If trying to do it with a ACFI protected circuit, it will not work, without tripping the ACFI when ever a load is placed on the line heavy enough. As mentioned before, you could plug in a small radio, the circuit may not trip, but plug in a heavy enough load on a ACFI circuit, it will fail.

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Old 01-02-2011, 03:16 PM   #20
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12/3 wire with ground


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Please cite the code article refering to countertops.
Receptacles installed in a kitchen to serve countertop surfaces shall be supplied by not fewer than two small appliance branch circuits! 210.52(b)(3)

I was however wrong about dedicated because they can also serve other receptacles also!

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Old 01-02-2011, 03:19 PM   #21
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Receptacles installed in a kitchen to serve countertop surfaces shall be supplied by not fewer than two small appliance branch circuits! 210.52(b)(3)
You are correct I was looking at something else. Sorry.
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Old 01-02-2011, 03:23 PM   #22
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12/3 wire with ground


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Receptacles installed in a kitchen to serve countertop surfaces shall be supplied by not fewer than two small appliance branch circuits! 210.52(b)(3)

I was however wrong about dedicated because they can also serve other receptacles also!
Other receptacles on the counter only, not in other rooms or serving lights under the cabinets.
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Old 01-02-2011, 03:25 PM   #23
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You are correct I was looking at something else. Sorry.
No problem buddy, posted before i seen your disregard.
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Old 01-02-2011, 03:26 PM   #24
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Other receptacles on the counter only, not in other rooms or serving lights under the cabinets.
correct,
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Old 01-02-2011, 03:26 PM   #25
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Code states one thing, but feasibility is another when you do it in the real world. There is no way a 80 square foot Kitchen may warrant any more than one Small Appliance circuit, lucky to have one outlet only, but a larger Kitchen 100 sq foot or larger can warrant two or more Small Appliance circuits and more than one outlet per circuit. It comes down to semantics when you put it in a real world situation.
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Old 01-02-2011, 03:29 PM   #26
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Code states one thing, but feasibility is another when you do it in the real world. There is no way a 80 square foot Kitchen may warrant any more than one Small Appliance circuit, lucky to have one outlet only, but a larger Kitchen 100 sq foot or larger can warrant two or more Small Appliance circuits and more than one outlet per circuit. It comes down to semantics when you put it in a real world situation.
Code is a minimal standard. We should not instructed DIYers to do anything less than that.
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Old 01-02-2011, 03:34 PM   #27
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Code states one thing, but feasibility is another when you do it in the real world. There is no way a 80 square foot Kitchen may warrant any more than one Small Appliance circuit, lucky to have one outlet only, but a larger Kitchen 100 sq foot or larger can warrant two or more Small Appliance circuits and more than one outlet per circuit. It comes down to semantics when you put it in a real world situation.
That's completely false
We run the toaster, toaster oven, hot plate & the microwave all together on a fairly reg basis
Sunday breakfasts are when everything is going all at once
No one wants to reset a breaker because someone renovated their kitchen & decided they did not need to meet the MIN standards of code
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Old 01-02-2011, 04:06 PM   #28
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That may be in your case, but in ours, we are lucky to run the toaster, which at the same time, would have the coffee pot on at the same time. Everyone's needs are different, and yes, the code is correct, but from feasibility, sometimes it makes no sense, especially in this case, where only one outlet is used all the time, and that is to the right side of my sink. I did make sure that if I ever decide to split the outlet to the left from the one on the right, all I have to do, is change it out in the junction box to add the second SABC if decided. The second outlet was only a addition to allow for power for the portable dish washer to not have to be pulled into the room.

It may change when we do the cabinets this Spring, since the wife wanted the electric done now, and not have only one outlet. In the case of the OP, I thought of using a MWBC in my case, which I could do, but from the headache point, it is not worth it, especially if the next person comes in, and starts messing with the junction box downstairs on the ceiling, and decides to feed 240 to the normally 120v circuit.
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Old 01-02-2011, 04:12 PM   #29
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12/3 wire with ground


Its not a matter of what YOU use
Its a matter of what is required by CODE
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Old 01-02-2011, 04:16 PM   #30
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12/3 wire with ground


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Its not a matter of what YOU use
Its a matter of what is required by CODE
He is gonna keep arguing this. I just hope whatever field he is in, he makes sure his customer get a code complainant job!

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