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Old 08-22-2007, 07:19 PM   #16
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100 amp subpanel install with a couple pix


I apologize if you think it was "harsh".
I saw enough of mis-information, so I stepped in to HELP YOU ... SORRY ..... if I offended you.

Now, I apologized for my comment, and removed it. I would hope you would do the same.

I just wanted you to get information from QUALIFIED people, like the real inspector in your municipality, not canvas the plant for the responses.
Again .. I apologize if I hurt your feelings ....
Make sure you talk all these points over with him. He could miss "something". We are all capable of over-lookin "thing"...
Be HONEST with him .. BE SAFE.

Yes, this sub-panel is very easily corrected ...and you can NOT derate the neutral...it must be the same as the load carrying conductior...
EX: THREE # 2 Cu wire, and a #4 grd.

I have no idea how large your home is ... but even here in Mi with kind of harsh winters ...I've never seen a "normal" size home (2000-3200sqft) with 40+ ckts.....

JGarth...


Last edited by JGarth; 08-22-2007 at 07:30 PM.
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Old 08-22-2007, 07:29 PM   #17
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100 amp subpanel install with a couple pix


Quote:
Originally Posted by JGarth View Post
I apologize if you think it was "harsh".
Some folks need a reality check to help in getting CORRECT information.
I saw enough of this banterring back & forth, so I stepped in th HELP YOU ... SORRY .....
I just wanted you to get information from QUALIFIED people, like the real inspector in your municipality, not canvas the plant for the responses.
Again .. I apologize if I hurt your feelings .... I realize some people are really sensitive. Make sure you talk all these points over with him.

I have no idea how large your home is ... but even here in Mi with kind of harsh winter ...I've never seen a "normal" size home (2000-3200sqft) with 40+ ckts.....

JGarth...
Heh, no problem. I thank you for your help, I guess I felt the issue as apparent and you just jumped on top of the monkey pile. I will surely make this right before it is put into service. Like I said in my mind I could not find anyone more qualified then the gents I spoke with. I can only assume they made the same mistake as I in applying the feeder table.

As far as the house goes, it will be about 4000 sqft when the basement is finished. You can see it in this thread New House DIY
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Old 08-22-2007, 07:34 PM   #18
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100 amp subpanel install with a couple pix


Ok,
4000 sqft....I can buy that.

You have a gorgeous lot, and even icer home ....

They made an honest mistake .... like we all do....
I would hope that you remove the comment about "re-occuring in forums" you made about me.

Thanks...and GOOD LUCK...
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Old 08-22-2007, 07:34 PM   #19
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100 amp subpanel install with a couple pix


Quote:
Originally Posted by JGarth View Post
I apologize if you think it was "harsh".

Yes, this sub-panel is very easily corrected ...and you can NOT derate the neutral...it must be the same as the load carrying conductior...
EX: THREE # 2 Cu wire, and a #4 grd.

JGarth...

Thanks, I'll make some calls to see who's got it in stock.
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Old 08-22-2007, 07:40 PM   #20
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100 amp subpanel install with a couple pix


Quote:
Originally Posted by JGarth View Post
Ok,
4000 sqft....I can buy that.

You have a gorgeous lot, and even icer home ....

They made an honest mistake .... like we all do....
I would hope that you remove the comment about "re-occuring in forums" you made about me.

Thanks...and GOOD LUCK...
Edits have been done.

Thanks, we have 15 acres about 6 miles from town and I can shoot a deer in the back yard if I want.

Thanks again
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Old 08-22-2007, 07:40 PM   #21
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Thank You,

Shooting is GOOD....
when I was younger...I shot a .300 Weatherby...all over North America..
now just a .270 ....
My sons get to shoot .... oldset is LtCol in USMC Recon CO, and youngest is a fighter pilot (F-18a) in the Navy on a Nimitz Class Carrier..
I was a Capt in the USMC, possbly contributing to my "direct" responses...
It's common conductor...
just get single conductor #2 Cu Thhn (tape the neutral WHITE at both ends), the # 4 Cu grd is already there.
Or just replace the 100 brkr with a say 80a (keep existing cables)....less work, but prob a few more $$....toss-up...

JGarth

Last edited by JGarth; 08-22-2007 at 07:44 PM.
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Old 08-22-2007, 07:47 PM   #22
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100 amp subpanel install with a couple pix


Quote:
Originally Posted by JGarth View Post
Thank You,

Shooting is GOOD....
when I was younger...I shot a .300 Weatherby...all over North America..
now just a .270 ....
My sons get to shoot .... oldset is LtCol in USMC Recon CO, and youngest is a fighter pilot (F-18a) in the Navy on a Nimitz Class Carrier..
I was a Capt in the USMC, possbly contributing to my "direct" responses...
It's common conductor...
just get single conductor #2 Cu Thhn (tape the neutral WHITE at both ends), the # 4 Cu grd is already there.
Or just replace the 100 brkr with a say 80a (keep existing cables)....less work, but prob a few more $$....toss-up...

JGarth
Excellent. Thank you and your sons for your/their service.

Single conductor was my plan.
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Old 08-22-2007, 07:51 PM   #23
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100 amp subpanel install with a couple pix


Thanks..
And GOOD Nite...and good Luck to you..

Now you have to fill up that 4000 sqft with K I D S .....

JGarth
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Old 08-22-2007, 07:55 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by JGarth View Post
Thanks..
And GOOD Nite...and good Luck to you..

Now you have to fill up that 4000 sqft with K I D S .....

JGarth
One 8yo and one gonna be here in a few weeks!
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Old 08-23-2007, 08:08 AM   #25
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100 amp subpanel install with a couple pix


That's good....kids need brothers & sisters....

Best of Luck....
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Old 08-23-2007, 09:41 AM   #26
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100 amp subpanel install with a couple pix


This is an awsome example how people CAN do it themselves regardless what is told by other people. I commend your work, very nicely done. I don't care for the color schemes you chosen but hey thats a cosmetic preference. I enjoy seeing people completing their own work without having to call in a specialist. Most people today can't even cut their own lawn...soo sad . A post that was on your link showing the rest of the pictures of your home and what you did a guy named badfish740 said this
"Wow! Let me say that this is a real inspiration to me. I'd like to do the exact same thing (Contract out the shell and do the inside work myself) and had been strongly advised against it by a lot of folks, but clearly you've shown that it can be done and you can save a lot of money doing it yourself."

I'm a Licensed contractor and yeh you saved ALOT of money and gained a whole lot of knowledge. It's defintily a no brainer to know that down the road if something happens your not going to need to call in somebody to take care of that outlet replacement, or hanging that new ceiling fan...
Advice to anyone wanting to do it themselves this is proof you can! don't let specialist in electrical/plumbing or any other area tell you that you can't. Just do your research ask questions that your not sure of, be prepared to be insulted and not get your question answered by certain people. Dont give up and try again. Its going to be long haul to do it yourself but in the end you WILL BE satisfied of what you done.
Im sure comp1911 would agree with me on this..

Great job/Great pics
Should be a great inspiration for people who are interested in seeing how a house works.
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Old 08-23-2007, 11:14 AM   #27
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This is an awsome example how people CAN do it themselves....

Thank you sir. I grew up relativly poor with parents that worked hard. My dad everything himself because that's what he could afford. I learned a lot from him, now I try to teach him some things .

As far as the house goes, the colors were chosen by my lovely wife . I could not have afforded to have this house built for me.

Thanks again for your comments.
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Old 08-23-2007, 12:01 PM   #28
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100 amp subpanel install with a couple pix


Absolutely a beautifully built and designed home!!

You know that darn services table causes me more grief than you will ever know. Like Garth I only want things safe for your new home and family.

As you can see many qualified people question the application of the services table 310.15 (B)(6). The cmp (code making panel) needs to clear the mess up with better language in the article for that table.

I'll give you my concerns/opinion for applying that table to sub-panels. The NEC knows that the service feeder is under a known diversity load. Calculated by the required demand load calculation for the dwelling and signed off by the electrical contractor and local codes department ,poco etc... However they can not be sure what happens as far as load diversity for an added sub-panel after the mains panel. Basically anything you do as far as branch circuits out of the service panel(s)(mains) is taken into consideration with the rating of the service. For instance a 400 amp service can have 400 amps intermitant (diversified load) or 320 amps continuous load... .80 x 400 = 320 amps. Based on the service/meter class to the dwelling. Anything that forces those parameters to expand is the concern for an added sub panel. They have no control of what someone does with a sub panel after the mains are full of breakers. So they require table 310.16 be used for everything load side of the service. In short they know you can't overload the service conductors based on diversity of the known load to the dwelling using table 310.15(b)(6) and any feasible loads you may add to the main load centers. They don't have that information for a sub on the load side of the service panel(s).

Stubbie
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Old 08-26-2007, 04:01 PM   #29
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I guess you resolved this while I was out of town.

Just a point to consider... Table 310.15(B)(2)(a) is PART of a code article' You have to read that too! 310.15((B)(6)

You cant just look at a table without looking at the article as well.
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Old 08-26-2007, 05:05 PM   #30
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I guess you resolved this while I was out of town.

Just a point to consider... Table 310.15(B)(2)(a) is PART of a code article' You have to read that too! 310.15((B)(6)

You cant just look at a table without looking at the article as well.
Garth also posted a link over at the Holt forum.

I called the inspector and told him what I was doing and asked what size wire I needed. He told be #4 copper or #2 aluminum. Obviously this issue is bigger then my little project.

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