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Old 04-08-2010, 08:03 AM   #31
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10 gauge pigtails in subpanel for 60 amp service?


Spoke with electrician this morning. He said he was allowed to drop down a wire size within the panel but he changed out the pigtails to 6 awg and brought the neutral to the lug. I didn't argue with that since I got what I wanted anyway. He couldn't get National Grid to come out and unlock (keyed) one of the panels that's why he needed to pigtail these conductors to what was there.
The new service from the street was never part of the original quote so he's going to try to balance the system using the existing 60 amp 3 phase service.
Finally, tell if this is correct... the jumper bar at the bottom was OK because this panel is directly after the meter.

I haven't hired a pro that I would hire again. Unless the client knows what they're looking at, a good recommendation is about as valuable as "well, he didn't burn my house down".
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Old 04-08-2010, 08:25 AM   #32
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10 gauge pigtails in subpanel for 60 amp service?


On your first post you called it a sub-panel. IMO if that panel is not service entrance equipment then the neutrals and grounding conductors should be separate. The meter means nothing. Meters can be installed anywhere one wants to monitor power usage.
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Old 04-08-2010, 08:38 AM   #33
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10 gauge pigtails in subpanel for 60 amp service?


That's right. Am I mistaken... is it not a sub-panel?
It's wired like sub-panel with a disconnect outside the panel.
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Old 04-08-2010, 09:02 AM   #34
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10 gauge pigtails in subpanel for 60 amp service?


What is upstream from that 60 amp disco? Service disco, ct cabinet, etc. ??
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Old 04-08-2010, 09:23 AM   #35
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10 gauge pigtails in subpanel for 60 amp service?


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What is upstream from that 60 amp disco? Service disco, ct cabinet, etc. ??
Nothing upstream from that... The street.
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Old 04-08-2010, 11:57 AM   #36
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10 gauge pigtails in subpanel for 60 amp service?


The neutral and ground are bonded at the first disconnecting means.
Is there a meter on the outside?
I've never seen a disconnect before the meter before.
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Old 04-08-2010, 11:58 AM   #37
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10 gauge pigtails in subpanel for 60 amp service?


It must be a one store commercial space then. If your part of a larger building then most likely there's a main service.
Brrics right....if there's a main service somewhere than that indeed is still a sub panel. A ground would have to be run with the feed. Or grounding conductor that connects to building ground.
One the flip side of that if it does come in right from the street then the strap has to be left in and a ground should be going directly to your main building ground.

The reason i include the stuff about the ground is that i don't see one anywhere comming in.
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Old 04-08-2010, 12:11 PM   #38
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10 gauge pigtails in subpanel for 60 amp service?


This is a building that has about 5 store fronts. I was mistaken, sorry I'm not familiar with commercial electric. The main disconnect must be in the basement of the first store. In any case there is not a ground conductor. I'll go back and look again but I don't remember seeing one.
Could the EMT be the ground conductor?
He's coming back to review what is in the basement of the first store. They were closed when he stopped by this morning to get the shop back up and running.
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Old 04-08-2010, 12:17 PM   #39
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10 gauge pigtails in subpanel for 60 amp service?


Yes, the emt could be the grounding means.
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Old 04-08-2010, 12:36 PM   #40
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10 gauge pigtails in subpanel for 60 amp service?


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Yes, the emt could be the grounding means.

Are there restrictions on the size of pipe that can be used as a grounding means in the U.S. or anything to do with the number of boxes it goes through on the way to service.

I see what looks like a ground clamp on the main pipe comming into the disconnect that's why i ask.
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Old 04-08-2010, 01:10 PM   #41
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10 gauge pigtails in subpanel for 60 amp service?


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Originally Posted by Clutchcargo View Post
Spoke with electrician this morning. He said he was allowed to drop down a wire size within the panel but he changed out the pigtails to 6 awg and brought the neutral to the lug. I didn't argue with that since I got what I wanted anyway. He couldn't get National Grid to come out and unlock (keyed) one of the panels that's why he needed to pigtail these conductors to what was there.

I haven't hired a pro that I would hire again. Unless the client knows what they're looking at, a good recommendation is about as valuable as "well, he didn't burn my house down".
Dropping down a size would have been to #8
I can't see that as working ?
Does that meet code ?
I just do not see it as a proper way to wire a panel

He couldn't get National Grid to come out ?
I can't see that as being 100% truthful either
If you can't do the job properly without Nat Grid, then you schedule a time with them
You don't install a 1/2 ass feed & then make excuses when you get caught
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Old 04-08-2010, 02:15 PM   #42
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10 gauge pigtails in subpanel for 60 amp service?


clutchcargo (Poster #31) ...You stated that the electrician gave a reason for not separating the Grounds and Neutrals ("Jumped") because "it is the first panel after/past the Meter". But --as you show in the picture-- The panel (and meter) is ahead of the switch. And the NEC rule, (if I understand it correctly) states that (Paraphrasing) ...Any equipment ahead of a Switch is not considered Service Equipment...?! As a matter of fact, on a residential job where I just changed out the Meter socket, where there was an EXISTING Service switch BEFORE the meter, the local utility (Con Ed) let me keep the switch but requested special "Isolators" in the Meter box, to separate/ Isolate the Neutral from Ground.!
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Old 04-08-2010, 02:52 PM   #43
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10 gauge pigtails in subpanel for 60 amp service?


I looked in the 2008 code book for the ground jumper article but couldn't find it.
The order is service -> switch->Meter->Panel. The meter uses two boxes, something to do with 3 phase.
I do believe he made it safe, however, the 60 amp service is still questionable. We've got the equilivant of 180 amps @ 120V or actual of 3 phases of 60 amps.
It's real close to being undersized. I figure the AC uses about 25 amps @ 220, Espresso Machine about 22 AMPs @ 120, coffee machine is about 18 amps @ 120, and 2 fridges at about 15 amps each @120. All of these are guesses but these are the big draw items.
That leaves about 60 amps @ 120 V for everything else, not a big comfort zone. Fortuneatly, the coffee roaster is NG.
I vaguely remember the downsize conductor being discussed in this forum before where someone piped in and said it was OK because of the length of the conductor. Still half assed if ask me though.
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Old 04-08-2010, 03:57 PM   #44
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10 gauge pigtails in subpanel for 60 amp service?


the neutral and ground is bonded at the first disconnect, not the first panel. Your fuse box before this panel is at least one disconnect before this panel so this panel cannot have the neutral and ground bonded.

you also connect you grounding electrode system to the same disconnect the neutral and grounds are bonded within. Obviously he has not done that in this panel so he is aware there is a disco prior to this panel.

for the purposes of bondin and such, this IS a sub-panel.

another clue: if this were a main disconnect, it would have to have a disconnect (main breaker) in the panel. It obviously doesn't.

and since you believe there is a main service elsewhere in the building, that most definitely makes this a sub-panel.

Quote:
Could the EMT be the ground conductor?
yes. there are a few rules involved but in general the pipe is acceptable.

Quote:
I see what looks like a ground clamp on the main pipe comming into the disconnect that's why i ask.
based on what that clamp looks like, I would guess it is a phone company ground connection or some other non-electrical service ground connection to the electrical service ground.


what is that group of what looks like NM cables coming out of the wall to the left lower side of the new panel?

and dropping down a size of wire in the panel: I would love to see his code citation for that one.

Quote:
It's real close to being undersized. I figure the AC uses about 25 amps @ 220, Espresso Machine about 22 AMPs @ 120, coffee machine is about 18 amps @ 120, and 2 fridges at about 15 amps each @120. All of these are guesses but these are the big draw items.
this is a screwy way of doing it but I understand what you are trying to do. You have to realize that a 2 pole circuit loads each of the phases it connects to with the same amperage so that 25 amp 220 A/C is 25 amps on each of 2 phases. You had at least 2 30 amp 2 pole breakers in that panel and they were on the same 2 phases. That right there would use up 2 of the 3 phases of power. That leaves you with 1 leg/60 amps to feed absolutely everything else.

the single phase stuff you listed totals 70 amps. 60 amps service isn't near enough let alone any extra from what I can see. Obviously non-concurrent uses will mean not everything is drawing at the same time but from what you have listed, there is a great possibility of a lot of them running at the same time.

I think you need a bigger feeder circuit for this use.
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Old 04-08-2010, 04:33 PM   #45
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10 gauge pigtails in subpanel for 60 amp service?


The bx junk at the lower left of the panel is abandoned wiring.
I agree, that's not enough amperage for this store with many high draw appliances. The fact of the matter is that he didn't price out the job to bring new service in and the budget is already shot, there's no money left.
He's been paid because the do-nothing inspector signed off on the permit. It's aggravating but it is what it is.

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