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Old 04-07-2010, 09:49 PM   #16
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10 gauge pigtails in subpanel for 60 amp service?


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Originally Posted by Clutchcargo View Post
The permit was signed off on. The electrician also stated that if anyone touched his panel, he wouldn't warrant the work.
your lucky. I wouldn't warranty to the work in any situation.



there are 2 things you need to figure out:

the fuse/breaker size that feeds this. If anything over 30 amp, the fuses or the feeders must be corrected.


the load on this panel...

well, nevermind on that. It is obvious it is not fed with a large enough circuit to feed what it required of it evidenced by the main breaker tripping.

your "electrician" needs to fix this. Hopefully you haven't paid him yet.

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Old 04-07-2010, 09:51 PM   #17
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10 gauge pigtails in subpanel for 60 amp service?


Defend his work ?
There is no defense of that splice

The fuse blew when the AC kicked on ?
Or a breaker tripped ?
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Old 04-07-2010, 09:51 PM   #18
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10 gauge pigtails in subpanel for 60 amp service?


Unfortuneatly paid when the permit was signed off on. Worked fine for a week, then with the heat today, the AC must have been working longer than the prior 5 days.
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Old 04-07-2010, 09:56 PM   #19
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10 gauge pigtails in subpanel for 60 amp service?


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Defend his work ?
There is no defense of that splice

The fuse blew when the AC kicked on ?
Or a breaker tripped ?
What you don't see ahead of this is a bank of 3-60 amp fuses. I'm sure you've seen this type of disconnect before. Anyway, one of those large fuses blew. Looks like this

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Old 04-07-2010, 10:07 PM   #20
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10 gauge pigtails in subpanel for 60 amp service?


If you keep running your A/C on this panel you will get a large voltage drop and ruin your A/C compressor. I would get the inspector back.
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Old 04-07-2010, 10:16 PM   #21
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10 gauge pigtails in subpanel for 60 amp service?


so, I take it you did an addition or something and needed more circuits, and obviously more power, than the panel this replaced.

If so, the "electrician" did not pay any attention to any sort of actual load or load calcs and the feeder is now undersized.

I would call him up and tell him nobody wants to touch his work so he needs to come out and make it right.

and where is that neutral wire going? I don't see it on the large lug where it should be landed. I know, he spliced that with a #10 as well and it is landed on the terminal bar somewhere there, right?

and is that a white wire landed on a breaker in the lower left corner. It appears to be going to a 2 pole breaker so I presume it is a 208 volt circuit. Need to remark that wire with some black tape or marker or something.

and a BIG whoa. Is that a jumper bar across the bottom bonding the left and right hand ground/neutral terminal bars together? Sure looks like it to me.
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Old 04-07-2010, 10:24 PM   #22
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10 gauge pigtails in subpanel for 60 amp service?


A 3 phase, 40 circuit panel fed by 60 amps.

Without doing a load calc, that would have been 100 amps from the start.
You may find out the reason he did not go higher, is the fused disconnect is only rated for 60 amps.

Nice looking panel, just not a well thought out job.
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Old 04-07-2010, 10:28 PM   #23
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10 gauge pigtails in subpanel for 60 amp service?


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Nice looking panel, just not a well thought out job.
If I have a choice between functional and pretty, I'll take functional any day. Don't get me wrong, I like pretty but pretty will never make this thing work.
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Old 04-07-2010, 10:47 PM   #24
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10 gauge pigtails in subpanel for 60 amp service?


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so, I take it you did an addition or something and needed more circuits, and obviously more power, than the panel this replaced.

If so, the "electrician" did not pay any attention to any sort of actual load or load calcs and the feeder is now undersized.

I would call him up and tell him nobody wants to touch his work so he needs to come out and make it right.

and where is that neutral wire going? I don't see it on the large lug where it should be landed. I know, he spliced that with a #10 as well and it is landed on the terminal bar somewhere there, right?

and is that a white wire landed on a breaker in the lower left corner. It appears to be going to a 2 pole breaker so I presume it is a 208 volt circuit. Need to remark that wire with some black tape or marker or something.

and a BIG whoa. Is that a jumper bar across the bottom bonding the left and right hand ground/neutral terminal bars together? Sure looks like it to me.
Good catch with the jumper bar.
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Old 04-07-2010, 10:52 PM   #25
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10 gauge pigtails in subpanel for 60 amp service?


and now that you provided that blow up, it looks like a jumper is attached to the terminal bar on the left to the tub. If that is what it looks like to me, make sure there are no neutrals landed on that left hand terminal strip and no grounds (EGC's) landed on the right hand side and that jumper needs to go.

I would call the guy up and have him taking care of all this but obviously his work needs to be verified by somebody that knows what the heck they are doing.

and please tell me those are #10's going to the bottom breakers on each side. I could't see where an orange NM came down on the left side and that makes me kind of wonder if they are 10's or 12's.

Last edited by nap; 04-07-2010 at 10:55 PM.
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Old 04-07-2010, 10:58 PM   #26
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10 gauge pigtails in subpanel for 60 amp service?


You would still need the jumper to bond the can to the grounds.
Still need to take the bar off and keep the grounds on the left side.

I just did a repair on this huge forclosure. One of the sub panels was not bonded.
They had disconnected the connecting bar and ran the grounds on one side and the neutrals on the other.
The neutrals landed on the bar the had the bonding jumper they jusned out of the way.

I took a number 8 and bonded the grounds,
Checked all his panels and they were consistantly wired the same way.

Sometime you have to wonder what or if people are thinking on the job!
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Old 04-07-2010, 11:02 PM   #27
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10 gauge pigtails in subpanel for 60 amp service?


Thanks All,
here's my list... Did I miss anything?
- Jumper bar on the bottom connecting ground and neutral should be disconnected.
- Move all grounds to one bar and neutrals to the other.
- Separate ground needed from main panel
- 60 amp service for 40 circuits? Need service upgraded to at least 200 amps.
- 10 AWG wires pigtailed for 60 amp service is a violation.
- White hot wires not marked with black tape.
- Neutral not on lug.
- Have work verified by someone who knows what they're doing.
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Old 04-07-2010, 11:05 PM   #28
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10 gauge pigtails in subpanel for 60 amp service?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Clutchcargo View Post
Thanks All,
here's my list... Did I miss anything?
- Jumper bar on the bottom connecting ground and neutral should be disconnected.
- Move all grounds to one bar and neutrals to the other.
- Separate ground needed from main panel
- 60 amp service for 40 circuits? Need service upgraded to at least 200 amps.
- 10 AWG wires pigtailed for 60 amp service is a violation.
- White hot wires not marked with black tape.
- Neutral not on lug.
- Have work verified by someone who knows what they're doing.
- make complaint to BBB and or state/province regulatory body
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Old 04-07-2010, 11:22 PM   #29
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10 gauge pigtails in subpanel for 60 amp service?


I cannot state that a separate grounding conductor is needed from the panel from what I see. Metal conduit is an acceptable grounding conductor as long as it meets certain installation requirements, some of which can't be seen in the pics.
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Old 04-08-2010, 01:51 AM   #30
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10 gauge pigtails in subpanel for 60 amp service?


a couple other things i've thought of that you might want to have a look at as well
If your space has a dropped ceiling then the light fixtures can't be wired with nm cable.
If it's been built with aluminum studs then nm cable is a no no too unless it's been mechanically protected as it passes through the studs.

I've done alot of commercial spaces some small and some very large. I've never used NM cable for any of them. We always use canada's version of "bx" which is armoured cable with a bare ground conductor in it, or conduit.

Good catch on the bonding strap and 208v white Nap

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