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Old 10-20-2008, 11:00 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Winchester View Post
More than likely there is much more that could be done to tighten up your house.
I've walked the basement with the can of spray foam and caulk and hit all of the daylight I could. I have a few more things to do like insulate the joist bays in the basement and gasket all of the outlets.

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Old 10-20-2008, 11:25 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by jerryh3 View Post
I haven't seen any stand-alone steam units. That would be my first choice.
I'm in them market for a whole house humidifier as well and am waiting on quotes right now. I've narrowed down my list to a water wasting bypass humidifier, or an electricity sucking steam humidifier, specifically the TrueSteam model made by Honeywell. Do some searching on TrueSteam and you will find more info. Good Luck!
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Old 10-20-2008, 11:30 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by dgbehrends View Post
I'm in them market for a whole house humidifier as well and am waiting on quotes right now. I've narrowed down my list to a water wasting bypass humidifier, or an electricity sucking steam humidifier,
Did you check out the Aprilaire 400.
Its a bypass, but not a flow thru.
It does require its pad to be changed twice a seson.
Not recomended for heat pump application though.
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Old 10-20-2008, 11:32 PM   #19
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Whole house humidifier


Quote:
Originally Posted by dgbehrends View Post
I'm in them market for a whole house humidifier as well and am waiting on quotes right now. I've narrowed down my list to a water wasting bypass humidifier, or an electricity sucking steam humidifier, specifically the TrueSteam model made by Honeywell. Do some searching on TrueSteam and you will find more info. Good Luck!

By pass humidifiers don't waste water.

The steam humidifier is a monster on maintenance because of the scale build unless your shelling out a couple hundred more for some add on flusher,.
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Old 10-21-2008, 03:27 AM   #20
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Whole house humidifier


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Originally Posted by dgbehrends View Post
I'm in them market for a whole house humidifier as well and am waiting on quotes right now. I've narrowed down my list to a water wasting bypass humidifier, or an electricity sucking steam humidifier, specifically the TrueSteam model made by Honeywell. Do some searching on TrueSteam and you will find more info. Good Luck!
I don't have ductwork in my house so I'm limited with my choices. I think I might just another year with a console unit. I have a baby due in a week and my wife isn't too happy about the idead of cutting holes in walls right now.
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Old 10-22-2008, 11:24 AM   #21
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Whole house humidifier


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Originally Posted by beenthere View Post
Did you check out the Aprilaire 400.
Its a bypass, but not a flow thru.
It does require its pad to be changed twice a seson.
Not recomended for heat pump application though.
I just checked it out and it looks different from the 600A or honeywell equivalent that I was considering, however I need to look for more commentary and pricing on how much the filters cost and how gunked up they can get.

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Originally Posted by hvaclover View Post
By pass humidifiers don't waste water.
The steam humidifier is a monster on maintenance because of the scale build unless your shelling out a couple hundred more for some add on flusher,.
Unless your talking about the 400A (new type) or your definition of a bypass humidifier is wildly different from mine then I have to disagree and say that most bypass humidifiers do waste a lot of water. As far as the scale build up, Honeywell claims they have the heater element material figured out such that it won't accumulate mineral deposits. They slapped a 5 year warranty on the thing, but only time will tell. My concern with the steam is that there are lots of parts and that it could cost a lot due to electricity usage. My problem with the Bypass is that it requires the furnace to be on and that costs money too, but it may not be able to get my humidity up fast enough without over heating the house. I don't think my furnace is over sized. Here is a description of my setup for reference.
http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=154238
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Old 10-22-2008, 02:32 PM   #22
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Whole house humidifier


When you consider it as a benefit vs. cost, and the unit delivers humidity as advertised ie. your home is well humidified to you comfort level, than you are getting what you pay for and you are losing little water down the drain. And the maintenance is next to nothing because there is no standing water to form scum and other moldy materials.

In my book and the opinion of most HVACer, that's a savings, not a waste of money.
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Old 10-22-2008, 04:14 PM   #23
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Whole house humidifier


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Originally Posted by hvaclover View Post
When you consider it as a benefit vs. cost, and the unit delivers humidity as advertised ie. your home is well humidified to you comfort level, than you are getting what you pay for and you are losing little water down the drain. And the maintenance is next to nothing because there is no standing water to form scum and other moldy materials.

In my book and the opinion of most HVACer, that's a savings, not a waste of money.
First, my concern with the 400A is that I might not be able to get my humidity to the correct level because it depends on the furnace running, and remember running the furnace is additional cost, plus the warm water also keeps the water heater running. It's not as simple as saying water is cheap electricity is expensive and therefore the bypass is better. Looking at past products, I think its safe to say that yes steam humidifiers are more maintenance. I think the jury is still out on whether the TrueSteam can be categorized with steam humidifiers of the past.

Second, I'm skeptical when someone says "most HVACers" or "most Doctors". I'm not saying your wrong but I think its hard to quantify that. Maybe on this forum, but that may not represent other forums or the industry.

I'm just a HO so what do I know. *not much*
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Old 10-22-2008, 05:36 PM   #24
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Whole house humidifier


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Originally Posted by dgbehrends View Post
First, my concern with the 400A is that I might not be able to get my humidity to the correct level because it depends on the furnace running, and remember running the furnace is additional cost, plus the warm water also keeps the water heater running. It's not as simple as saying water is cheap electricity is expensive and therefore the bypass is better. Looking at past products, I think its safe to say that yes steam humidifiers are more maintenance. I think the jury is still out on whether the TrueSteam can be categorized with steam humidifiers of the past.

Second, I'm skeptical when someone says "most HVACers" or "most Doctors". I'm not saying your wrong but I think its hard to quantify that. Maybe on this forum, but that may not represent other forums or the industry.

I'm just a HO so what do I know. *not much*
You made a general statement that bypass humids are wasters and I answered in kind with a generalization.

But now you want to re frame the context in which the issue was originally stated and say they are wasteful under certain conditions.


OK let's play it your way.
For one thing there are humidifiers available when properly installed on a right sized furnace can/will humidify the home off the cold water supply as well as the hot water side, it's optional.

So there goes the idea of by pass humids causing more than normal water heater cycling and "wasting" gas.
Longer furnace cycles wasting gas and electricity to achieve comfortable humidity levels: It is a proven fact as established by ASHRAE that a home feels more comfortable a lower temps setting when properly humidified.
That means shorter run cycles. No wasted gas or electricity here either.

Humids using hot water: even assuming a 22 gal per day humidifier; if the humid runs 24/7 the gallon usage per hour is less than one gal of water per hour. That is not enough draw off the WH to cause it to cycle.

And as far as your skepticism about "What most HVACers say" not being valid beyond the boundaries of what ever forum you happen to be reading at the moment: You should be advised that most of the guys you read good information from do not limit themselves to just one forum. I don't and I know the pros here don't either. So you are under one big misconception that the opinions stated on just one site are unique to it only.

And in ending I would like to tell you that your smart ass ending comments
are not appreciated. Quote:I'm just an HO so what do I know*not much*.

Guys and ladies give freely of themselves here and do it on our own time.

Nobody begrudges you being knowledgeable in any area of expertise you wish to pursue.

But you are just being arrogant and be little the real pros here by boasting how much you "think" you know.
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Last edited by hvaclover; 10-22-2008 at 05:43 PM.
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Old 10-22-2008, 06:12 PM   #25
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Whole house humidifier


Quote:
Originally Posted by hvaclover View Post
You made a general statement that bypass humids are wasters and I answered in kind with a generalization.

But now you want to re frame the context in which the issue was originally stated and say they are wasteful under certain conditions.


OK let's play it your way.
For one thing there are humidifiers available when properly installed on a right sized furnace can/will humidify the home off the cold water supply as well as the hot water side, it's optional.

So there goes the idea of by pass humids causing more than normal water heater cycling and "wasting" gas.
Longer furnace cycles wasting gas and electricity to achieve comfortable humidity levels: It is a proven fact as established by ASHRAE that a home feels more comfortable a lower temps setting when properly humidified.
That means shorter run cycles. No wasted gas or electricity here either.

Humids using hot water: even assuming a 22 gal per day humidifier; if the humid runs 24/7 the gallon usage per hour is less than one gal of water per hour. That is not enough draw off the WH to cause it to cycle.

And as far as your skepticism about "What most HVACers say" not being valid beyond the boundaries of what ever forum you happen to be reading at the moment: You should be advised that most of the guys you read good information from do not limit themselves to just one forum. I don't and I know the pros here don't either. So you are under one big misconception that the opinions stated on just one site are unique to it only.

And in ending I would like to tell you that your smart ass ending comments
are not appreciated. Quote:I'm just an HO so what do I know*not much*.

Guys and ladies give freely of themselves here and do it on our own time.

Nobody begrudges you being knowledgeable in any area of expertise you wish to pursue.

But you are just being arrogant and be little the real pros here by boasting how much you "think" you know.
Can I throw something in here to give a little insight on the water wasting comments of the 360. It says it has a evaporative capacity of .5 gal/hr but a feed rate of 6 gal/hr. 6 gallons of hot water per hour seems like a lot to get .5 gallons into the air. Not trying to get in the middle of the "discussion", but those numbers seem to justify the "water wasting" position.
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Old 10-22-2008, 07:23 PM   #26
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Whole house humidifier


Quote:
Originally Posted by hvaclover View Post
You made a general statement that bypass humids are wasters and I answered in kind with a generalization.
What I have learned here is that there are some bypass humidifiers that don't waste water, like the 400A. My reading up to this point was on bypass humidifier models that in my opinion send unused water down the drain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hvaclover View Post
But now you want to re frame the context in which the issue was originally stated and say they are wasteful under certain conditions.


OK let's play it your way.
For one thing there are humidifiers available when properly installed on a right sized furnace can/will humidify the home off the cold water supply as well as the hot water side, it's optional.

So there goes the idea of by pass humids causing more than normal water heater cycling and "wasting" gas.
From reading forums and discussing with contractors who have bid on installing my HVAC setup to date (see link in my post above), which makes the following statement my opinion and not fact, is that bypass humidifiers are more effective when hooked up to the hot water supply. If I understand your comments correctly, your saying that in some circumstances the bypass humidifier doesn't need to be hooked up to the hot water supply to effectively deliver humidification for a particular home, based on what the homeowner finds comfortable. I agree with your statement. However my opinion formulated thus far is that this would not work for my home.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hvaclover View Post
Longer furnace cycles wasting gas and electricity to achieve comfortable humidity levels: It is a proven fact as established by ASHRAE that a home feels more comfortable a lower temps setting when properly humidified.
That means shorter run cycles. No wasted gas or electricity here either.
Yes I agree that this is a fact. The key is getting to the proper humidity level, and then convincing the wife that she doesn't need to keep bumping that temperature up after I bump it down. I struggled with this because I over used my HRV last winter (wrongly) thinking I needed more fresh air. If I can manage my humidity better, maybe I can convince her to think about how comfortable she actually feels instead of being fixated on a temperature setting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hvaclover View Post
Humids using hot water: even assuming a 22 gal per day humidifier; if the humid runs 24/7 the gallon usage per hour is less than one gal of water per hour. That is not enough draw off the WH to cause it to cycle.
True, it won't be the sole contributor to a WH cycle, but it will add to the other uses that do make the WH cycle. The carbon footprint or whatever you want to call it is hard to quantify in this situation, but I believe it is non-negligible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hvaclover View Post
And as far as your skepticism about "What most HVACers say" not being valid beyond the boundaries of what ever forum you happen to be reading at the moment: You should be advised that most of the guys you read good information from do not limit themselves to just one forum. I don't and I know the pros here don't either. So you are under one big misconception that the opinions stated on just one site are unique to it only.
Misconception or not I have not read a strong bias for or against the Truesteam humidifier. I have read more negative than positive comments about older style steam humidifiers. I have a standalone steam humidifier and the heating element does build up scale and is a pain to clean. Honeywell claims they have solved this problem. Do I believe them straight out, not entirely. Would I like to see comments from HOs (or pros that have feedback from HOs) using the Truesteam regarding this matter, Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hvaclover View Post
And in ending I would like to tell you that your smart ass ending comments
are not appreciated. Quote:I'm just an HO so what do I know*not much*.

Guys and ladies give freely of themselves here and do it on our own time.

Nobody begrudges you being knowledgeable in any area of expertise you wish to pursue.

But you are just being arrogant and be little the real pros here by boasting how much you "think" you know.
I apologize about my "I'm just a HO" quote. It was in no way meant to be arrogant or be little the folks that give their time to help others. In fact I was "trying" albeit unsuccessfully to poke fun at myself . However, I am wary of people that try to deceptively push a product for personal benefit. IMO you were not trying to this.

Some people quote facts and some simple state opinions. Most of what I say is opinion. I am in the process of deciding to go with a TrueSteam or bypass, potentially the 400A or "brand" equivalent.

Were you considering the TrueSteam when you made this quote?
Quote:
Originally Posted by hvaclover
The steam humidifier is a monster on maintenance because of the scale build unless your shelling out a couple hundred more for some add on flusher,.
If so, are you simply skeptical of the product or do you know of situations where the TrueSteam has been a maintenance nightmare?
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Old 10-22-2008, 07:24 PM   #27
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Whole house humidifier


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Originally Posted by jerryh3 View Post
Can I throw something in here to give a little insight on the water wasting comments of the 360. It says it has a evaporative capacity of .5 gal/hr but a feed rate of 6 gal/hr. 6 gallons of hot water per hour seems like a lot to get .5 gallons into the air. Not trying to get in the middle of the "discussion", but those numbers seem to justify the "water wasting" position.

When was the last time you saw a furnace run for an hour non stop except when it hits it's steady state capacity. Even during 20 or 30* weather the furnace cycles on average of four to six cycles per hour. And by then the humidification has been well established by this time.

The humidification process is a slow one. It takes on average one or two weeks of humidifier run time to bring a home into the recommended industry accepted range of 40 to 50% RH. Sure the specs state a specific volume of water per a given length of run time. But it's not clock time. There will be days during cold weather where the in home RH is too high to close the the humidistat. This will be due to either out door RH being higher or the living habits of the family (taking more showers, doing laundry, cooking) artificially raising the home's RH level.The furnace will run but the humidifier remains off until the RH drops below control set point again.
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Old 10-22-2008, 07:31 PM   #28
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Whole house humidifier


Quote:
Originally Posted by dgbehrends View Post
What I have learned here is that there are some bypass humidifiers that don't waste water, like the 400A. My reading up to this point was on bypass humidifier models that in my opinion send unused water down the drain.


From reading forums and discussing with contractors who have bid on installing my HVAC setup to date (see link in my post above), which makes the following statement my opinion and not fact, is that bypass humidifiers are more effective when hooked up to the hot water supply. If I understand your comments correctly, your saying that in some circumstances the bypass humidifier doesn't need to be hooked up to the hot water supply to effectively deliver humidification for a particular home, based on what the homeowner finds comfortable. I agree with your statement. However my opinion formulated thus far is that this would not work for my home.


Yes I agree that this is a fact. The key is getting to the proper humidity level, and then convincing the wife that she doesn't need to keep bumping that temperature up after I bump it down. I struggled with this because I over used my HRV last winter (wrongly) thinking I needed more fresh air. If I can manage my humidity better, maybe I can convince her to think about how comfortable she actually feels instead of being fixated on a temperature setting.


True, it won't be the sole contributor to a WH cycle, but it will add to the other uses that do make the WH cycle. The carbon footprint or whatever you want to call it is hard to quantify in this situation, but I believe it is non-negligible.


Misconception or not I have not read a strong bias for or against the Truesteam humidifier. I have read more negative than positive comments about older style steam humidifiers. I have a standalone steam humidifier and the heating element does build up scale and is a pain to clean. Honeywell claims they have solved this problem. Do I believe them straight out, not entirely. Would I like to see comments from HOs (or pros that have feedback from HOs) using the Truesteam regarding this matter, Yes.



I apologize about my "I'm just a HO" quote. It was in no way meant to be arrogant or be little the folks that give their time to help others. In fact I was "trying" albeit unsuccessfully to poke fun at myself . However, I am wary of people that try to deceptively push a product for personal benefit. IMO you were not trying to this.

Some people quote facts and some simple state opinions. Most of what I say is opinion. I am in the process of deciding to go with a TrueSteam or bypass, potentially the 400A or "brand" equivalent.

Were you considering the TrueSteam when you made this quote?

If so, are you simply skeptical of the product or do you know of situations where the TrueSteam has been a maintenance nightmare?

I was talking about steam in general as i have experienced it thru the years and up to now.
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Old 10-22-2008, 07:58 PM   #29
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Whole house humidifier


Quote:
Originally Posted by jerryh3 View Post
I've walked the basement with the can of spray foam and caulk and hit all of the daylight I could. I have a few more things to do like insulate the joist bays in the basement and gasket all of the outlets.
Hi Jerry,
First off sorry to somewhat de-rail your thread. I painted one of my rooms and while I had the outlet covers off I noticed a sizable draft coming out of the outlet or light switch. Could you elaborate a little more on what you mean by "gasket all of the outlets"? The breeze I felt was coming from inside the box and not from around the outside edges, strangely enough. I'm guessing stuffing some insulation around the wire nuts is a bad idea?
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Old 10-22-2008, 08:09 PM   #30
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? The way you were going I completely forgot who the OP was.

To the OP: sorry this was your thread. Guess i helped turn it into a train wreck.

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