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-   -   Thermostat VS Ceiling fan (http://www.diychatroom.com/f17/thermostat-vs-ceiling-fan-30239/)

MrShadetree0222 10-20-2008 12:51 AM

Thermostat VS Ceiling fan
 
I am not knowledged on this issue' so I need help with this one!

This is a thermostat vs ceiling fan issue! My issue being, when the ceiling fan is in winter circulation. (http://www.bobvila.com/images/icons/TipIcon.gif should rotate counter clock-wise in the summer (to generate a breeze downward to cool you off) and clock-wise in the winter (to cycle the warm air that rises to your ceiling.) Do not be afraid to run your ceiling fan in the winter. You can expect a 10-15% savings on your You can save up to 40% off your cooling bill in the summer.PER: BOB VILLA

Now when my thermostat turns off the hvac, it aint but a few minutes later that the ceiling fan starts producing cold air from circulation! This air is being produced form a 70" Ceiling fan, so within a few minutes of furnace being cycled off the ceiling fan actually produces enough cool wind to cool the thermostat and turn on the hvac when not needed! Then when the hvac does turn on it only stays on for a few minutes then shuts down again for a few minutes! We have been leaving the fans off till i research this issue, but 1 1/2 weeks of research still produced no explanation for this concept saving me 10-15%
I have put disposable thermometers in everyroom in the house for the purpose of this research, and what my expieriement has proved is that when the furnace kicks off with in 3-5 minutes the ceiling fan cools thermostat enough to turn on even when the room is at actual temputure set on thermostat!
Now I know I can turn off the ceiling fans to stop this issue(have been doing this on/off during research), but it has been proven that it will save money in the long run for me to leave them running, but I dont find this to be correct if the ceiling fan is causing my thermo to turn on/off hvac repeatedly??????
Now I have 11 rooms in my house and every single room in the house is with in 1'degree of the thermostat setting.
So if you would/could please help me understand this concept your help would be greatly appreciated!
Any more questions please ask as i have become very familiar with this research(for my application), and just looking to prove it right or wrong if I can!(lol)

Oh forgot to mention that without the ceiling fans running the hvac doesnt turn on but 3-4 times an hour(depending on time of day, per:research of my application)and running for 4-6 minutes before turning off agin per my application research!!!!

If you have another test or theory you wish for me to explore in regards to resolution to this question then throw them out thier as I am more then happy to continue my research and learning!
Thermostat is located 5'ft from the floor, in a room with 9' ceilings! Not sure if this is an issue or not but figured I would throw this info out incase needed!

beenthere 10-20-2008 05:56 AM

The fan does not generate cold or cold air.
It only circulates the air at what ever temp the air already is.

Generally, you run the fan to bring the warm air off the ceiling in winter. And to pick up the cool air in the summer.

In reality, in homes with low ceilings(10' or less) it makes no real difference which way the fan spins. All they do is prevent stratification.

Its possible that your fan is installed in an area that creates air circulation between one or more rooms and is bringing on the heat quicker.

A 70" fan is for a large open area. How big is the area that you have it installed in.

MrShadetree0222 10-20-2008 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beenthere (Post 174216)
The fan does not generate cold or cold air.
It only circulates the air at what ever temp the air already is.

Generally, you run the fan to bring the warm air off the ceiling in winter. And to pick up the cool air in the summer.

In reality, in homes with low ceilings(10' or less) it makes no real difference which way the fan spins. All they do is prevent stratification.

Its possible that your fan is installed in an area that creates air circulation between one or more rooms and is bringing on the heat quicker.

A 70" fan is for a large open area. How big is the area that you have it installed in.

Thank you for responding,
Well the ceiling fans were purchased, for the 2 rooms to be in sinc with one another, and they were purchased entirely for the looks value'(per:wifey). The living room space is 18.5'X14'(not including the 44" staircase leading upstairs with an open fouyer 12'X8' at the top of the stairs, and the dining room area is 12.5'X12.5'. but since there was not a smaller version of the ceiling fan to match what was used in the living room, we had to use a large one for the dining room, to keep the 2 rooms matching. And yes the dining room does feed off two other rooms plus the staircase. being connected to the diningroom and living room.

hvaclover 10-20-2008 10:17 AM

Hey Been, ain't it supposed to be clock wise for clock wise for cooling counter clock wise for heat.

Not busting on you Shadetree that was a good post.

MrShadetree0222 10-20-2008 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hvaclover (Post 174274)
Hey Been, ain't it supposed to be clock wise for clock wise for cooling counter clock wise for heat.

Not busting on you Shadetree that was a good post.

I got the info directly from a bob villa website! I couldnt/wouldnt Assume bob villa to be offering incorrect information to the public!
Just done another test for reassurance! When the ceiling fan turns counterclock wise, it sucks up the walls and blows down the center of the fan, and when the fan turn clockwise it sucks up the center of the fan and blows out against the walls! Test performed with a lit cigarette in hand and watching direction of smake ie: sucking up or blowing down!

Marvin Gardens 10-20-2008 10:57 AM

This is not uncommon. The fans move air around as you describe and it will even move air into other rooms. Some of this air is cooler and will cause the thermostat to drop and then cause the furnace to come on again.

Here might be some solutions.

Cheap thermostats are too sensitive and will go on an off for less that one degree. The better thermostats have a predictive program that looks at how much the temperature has dropped and over what time. I have found these to be less likely to come on when something happens like a door opens and a gust of wind drops the temperature for a few minutes.

Don't ask me what thermostats do that cause I don't know. I install the Honeywell 6000 and 8000 series and have had good experience with them.

The second thing is that the location of the thermostat is helping cause this issue. Maybe something as simple as moving it over a few feet might fix the problem. I am not there and can't recommend a solution.

You might consider a small cover for the stat, the kind you see in offices that lock out people from messing with it, as that might stop the air from moving around the thermostat so much.

Your fans are overkill for the rooms you have. A 52" would have been just fine.

Also you talk about a large open area with the stairs. Does this have a fan in it? If not this is where all your heat is going and there should be one there.

MrShadetree0222 10-20-2008 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheap thermostats are too sensitive [COLOR=seagreen
, After my thermostat thread it is obvious that I have a cheap thermostat, per:responders to my post, and will be replacing in due time.[/COLOR]
Your fans are overkill for the rooms you have. A 52" would have been just fine.
These fans for were soley for looks only, and thier was is no exception to this, as wifey refuses to have any other ceiling fan installed in her home!
Also you talk about a large open area with the stairs. Does this have a fan in it? If not this is where all your heat is going and there should be one there.

The first area of discussion is the living room-18.5'X14' this is where the first fan is located, then the stair case, 44" wide, up to a 12'X8' opening at the top of the stairs, entrance to the 3 bedrooms and the bathroom! Then thier is the dining room, 12.5'X12.5'which has the other oversized ceiling fan, with a large opening leading to the kitchen, which is 14.5X13, with an opening to the laundry room, then another opening to the mud room(rear entry foyer). So thier is the living room, staircase, dining room, kitchen, laundry room, mud room all on the same oper floor plan, no doors anywhere down stair except to my bedroom, and the bathroom!

MrShadetree0222 10-20-2008 11:19 AM

Obviously leaving the ceiling fans off is the best solution to the problem(per: my expierament, and testing), but I figured if I could honestly get 10-15% saving on my heating costs then thats what my focus has been. But if I can get it then I want it(10-15%savings)

Winchester 10-20-2008 11:28 AM

Why not just run the furnace fan more frequently to equalize the heat difference among the rooms in your house? I certainly see a difference doing this, otherwise I can see a 4-5 degree difference (warmer) upstairs.

Also, running the furnace fan helps me utilize our Aprilaire 4400 furnace filter (recently installed) for the family alergen issues.

MrShadetree0222 10-20-2008 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winchester (Post 174306)
Why not just run the furnace fan more frequently to equalize the heat difference among the rooms in your house? I certainly see a difference doing this, otherwise I can see a 4-5 degree difference (warmer) upstairs.

Also, running the furnace fan helps me utilize our Aprilaire 4400 furnace filter (recently installed) for the family alergen issues.

per my expierament, i have installed 11 disposable thermometers in all 11 rooms in the house, all 11 thermometers are hung with in reason at the exact same hieght, and centered in the room to the best of my ability(hanging from ceiling fans or a string thumb tacked in ceiling, in every room) and thier isnt but a 1'degree variance from all of the rooms, during the test.
All testing done with thermostat set at 74 degrees! Again some variances did change pending different times of the day(day, night,kids opening closing doors, dryer running, kids showering,dishwarsher running you get the point) Now when these different variances took place i didnt use the readings from the thermometers as they would not reflect the most of accuracy for the expierament!
Test results per expierement: downstairs-my bedroom 73,living room 74, dinign room 74, kitchen 74,laundry room 75, mud room 73, bathroom 73, now Upstairs all three bedrooms 74, upstairs bathroom 73, open foyour at top of stairs 75
All of these test results were givin with in 25 seconds of hvac shutting off! Took six of us working the expierament to get as accurate up to the second readings/documenting of the thermometers, then changing the people from room to room, so before my testing was complete i was in everyroom to do the reading/documenting myself during this expierament! (as not to sure everyone knew how to properly read a thermometer!)
I have spent a week and a half working on this, this aint just a bunch of made up numbers here these are the bets and most accurate/up to the second reading thats could be gotten!
I have spent time and a whole lot of effort in ensurring that this expierament would give me accurate results of savings or not of 10%-15% on my heating bill!

hvaclover 10-20-2008 12:14 PM

I would have to say with all these fans running it would be like running a couple of side by side refrigerators. Lotsa juice being used. Seem it would either be a wash for what you might save on NG or AC electric. or cost even more to run the fans.

MrShadetree0222 10-20-2008 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hvaclover (Post 174331)
I would have to say with all these fans running it would be like running a couple of side by side refrigerators. Lotsa juice being used. Seem it would either be a wash for what you might save on NG or AC electric. or cost even more to run the fans.

Their are only 2 ceiling fans in question, livig room, dinign room. My bedroom is closed off with a door, and it is the only other ceiling fan downstairs where the thermostat is.
All the bedrooms upstairs are equipped with ceiling fans but they too are behind closed doors so they couldnt/shouldnt play a factor in the circulation of air downstairs?

hvaclover 10-20-2008 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winchester (Post 174306)
Why not just run the furnace fan more frequently to equalize the heat difference among the rooms in your house? I certainly see a difference doing this, otherwise I can see a 4-5 degree difference (warmer) upstairs.

Also, running the furnace fan helps me utilize our Aprilaire 4400 furnace filter (recently installed) for the family alergen issues.


That depends on the type fan. If it's a Variable Speed DC motor than it would run very little, but a standard PSC furnace motor can cost as much to run or more (since you have to run it 24/7 to work right) as a large side by side refrigerator.

But it does definitely work as Winchester said.

dac122 10-20-2008 01:07 PM

I would try experimenting with combos of one fan, two fans, blower one and off. If you can carefully unmount your tstat from the wall there may be enough wire to snake it a few feet in either direction and just duct tape it to the wall for an experiment. Just be careful.

Depending on how high tech your tstat is some allow for a remote thermistors and can be configured to use the remote, internal or both (average the readings). And as Marvin points out yours may have some capability that might just need to be configured.

Also, sounds like one or both of those ceiling fans are too big for the area. Any chance you can swap to some smaller blades, or a smaller fan that fit the wifey's motif. I'm also gonna ask a stupid question: are the fans on their lowest speed settings?

Since I know you're trying to optimize your system, consider yourself fortunate as 1 degree difference between rooms means a well designed system. I believe Manual D considers a 2 degree difference acceptable.

MrShadetree0222 10-20-2008 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dac122 (Post 174351)
I would try experimenting with combos of one fan, two fans, blower one and off. If you can carefully unmount your tstat from the wall there may be enough wire to snake it a few feet in either direction and just duct tape it to the wall for an experiment. Just be careful.
I will begin this immediatly, to give it a try, yes i left 10 ft of wire in the wall during install/running of thermowire.

Depending on how high tech your tstat is some allow for a remote thermistors and can be configured to use the remote, internal or both (average the readings). And as Marvin points out yours may have some capability that might just need to be configured.
I currently have a junk thermostat(acourding to my thermostat question thread)i will be upgrading in due time, but IMHO i dont feel that the quality of a thermostat is going to change weather the unit comes on and off repeatedly/nonstop, versus, for a length of time period several time an hour. But i am sure i can be wrong on this! I am trying to learn!

Also, sounds like one or both of those ceiling fans are too big for the area. Any chance you can swap to some smaller blades, or a smaller fan that fit the wifey's motif. I'm also gonna ask a stupid question: are the fans on their lowest speed settings?
Yes the option to change out the blades are by the hundreds, their are hundreds of differnt blade applications available, gotta get wife in here to help with the decision making process! Yes during testing they were tested under all speeds (high/med/low)

Since I know you're trying to optimize your system, consider yourself fortunate as 1 degree difference between rooms means a well designed system. I believe Manual D considers a 2 degree difference acceptable.

Thank you for that responce^^^^^^! It really did put a smile on my face, thier were posters(during my original post concerning installation of my unit) questioning weather I had done a proper job doing the installation myself! And wether I did or didnt do a good enough job during the sizing and installing the ducting size! Thank you!


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