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Old 11-08-2013, 04:42 PM   #31
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Thermostat for 3 zone hydronic and forced air?


As always, great advice - appreciated!

So with 600cfm and 1,000cfm numbers adding up to 1,600cfm, and blower being just 1,400cfm, are you assuming there should be a little buffer on bypass damper flow capacity?

Can you point me to specific MARD components and setup? If I find it to pricey, would there be a way to set up a dump zone. Or yet another setup with or without bypass damper?

Let me tell you more about my home layout. It's very air tight and well insulated.

2nd floor (3rd zone) will be handled likely just with single 14x8 trunk (~8x 6" branches) unless I figure out a way to run a 2nd trunk. About 1,500sqf, with 10/12 cathedral ceiling starting from the floor (so air volume like with 7.5ft flat ceiling) Planning on one 14x8 return and one 8" round high return (from right under the peak in open area)

1st floor (2nd zone) will be handled with two 14x8 trunks (12x 6" branches). 9ft ceilings, about 1,500sqf. 3x 8" returns and 1x 6-8" return.

Basement - still unsure how to do it as a separate zone, because of space restrictions (floor truss space filled with 1st floor ducting and plumbing), but ~5x 6" branches should be doable. Will be extremely hard to run it off a single trunk that would have a zone damper on. Also it will be hard to place a dedicated return.

Basement is well insulated and consists of 2 car garage, (obviously no return there), 15x15 laundry/hobby room with big glass double doors (big heat loss there), small bathroom, 26x13 storage room and 14x11 mechanical room.

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Old 11-08-2013, 05:46 PM   #32
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Thermostat for 3 zone hydronic and forced air?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ba1drick View Post
As always, great advice - appreciated!

So with 600cfm and 1,000cfm numbers adding up to 1,600cfm, and blower being just 1,400cfm, are you assuming there should be a little buffer on bypass damper flow capacity?

No, that was just my bad math, I wanted to say 800, sorry bout that.

Can you point me to specific MARD components and setup? If I find it to pricey, would there be a way to set up a dump zone. Or yet another setup with or without bypass damper?

Unfortunately, I cheat. When I call my distributor I say, with modulating pressure control. And they send me what I want(they read my mind some days).

Let me tell you more about my home layout. It's very air tight and well insulated.

2nd floor (3rd zone) will be handled likely just with single 14x8 trunk (~8x 6" branches) unless I figure out a way to run a 2nd trunk. About 1,500sqf, with 10/12 cathedral ceiling starting from the floor (so air volume like with 7.5ft flat ceiling) Planning on one 14x8 return and one 8" round high return (from right under the peak in open area)

1st floor (2nd zone) will be handled with two 14x8 trunks (12x 6" branches). 9ft ceilings, about 1,500sqf. 3x 8" returns and 1x 6-8" return.

Should have more return.

Basement - still unsure how to do it as a separate zone, because of space restrictions (floor truss space filled with 1st floor ducting and plumbing), but ~5x 6" branches should be doable. Will be extremely hard to run it off a single trunk that would have a zone damper on. Also it will be hard to place a dedicated return.

Basement is well insulated and consists of 2 car garage, (obviously no return there), 15x15 laundry/hobby room with big glass double doors (big heat loss there), small bathroom, 26x13 storage room and 14x11 mechanical room.
Basements are often a challenge.

Here is a link to Jackson. They have both types of bypass dampers. The EB has the static pressure sensor mounted on it. http://jacksonsystems.com/view_product/26305
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Old 11-08-2013, 06:15 PM   #33
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Thermostat for 3 zone hydronic and forced air?


Yes, basements are a challenge and mine is one for sure. I want some returns (other than garage) to be able to remove humid air. Probably enough supplies to keep it balanced (and have 1 supply per room) It's a walkout with 3 walls being underground and 1 wall being a wall with 2 garage doors and 1 double glass door.

It won't be finished space for sure (not to the extend of rest of the house) but it will be a living space that should be air conditioned/controlled.

I might go for another 8" return on the 1st floor, so I would have total of 6x 8" returns for that zone vs. 12x 6" supplies. More balanced, right?

2nd floor looks fine balance wise, right?

Also, with open stairway and fairly open design it should still end up balanced, at least I hope so. Even though my floor trusses are 18" deep, there are several foundation/design features that restrict my planning.

Either way this house will have more returns that the previous project I worked on, where licensed (!) HVAC guy hired by my GC put in a 140k BTU furnace / 5 ton AC into 3 story, 3,600sqf house and ended up with total of 2x 8" returns and 14.5"x20" opening (return) behind the furnace (off a return plenum). With AC running it's almost impossible to hold the mechanical room door open!!!
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Old 11-08-2013, 06:28 PM   #34
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Thermostat for 3 zone hydronic and forced air?


Yeah, the additional return will help a lot.

Trusses are nice. but not matter how big they are, or aren't, they never seem to have enough room for everything that should be put in them.

I don't know why some guys think you don't need to have a lot of return, to get enough supply air.
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Old 11-08-2013, 06:44 PM   #35
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Thermostat for 3 zone hydronic and forced air?


It was pretty much 1x 8" return per 1,400sqf of each 2nd and 3rd floor. Totally insane. His argument was that the bulk of return air will be coming down through the stairway down to the furnace plenum. Don't have to tell you how loud that furnace was, with that big of an opening towards the hallway.

1. I think I have to study more about basement HVAC science.
2. Also figure out how to effectively use the sensor terminals on Ecobee thermostats.
3. And do some research on MARD control. I guess that even with oversized damper, since it's modulating, it would still do the job. Better to oversize than undersize, right?

Another thing I still have to figure is how to include a whole house circ/dehu (Ultra-aire, not set on size/model yet) and how to wire it.
http://ultra-aire.com/pdf/Ultra-Aire...05H_Manual.pdf

It will have a fresh air supply with damper (for house dehu using lower humidity outside air) and unfortunately I won't have enough space for dedicated return. I guess return would have to be taking air from furnace return plenum and then dumping it back to supply plenum, like here: http://ultra-aire.com/pdf/Ultra-Aire...ly_Install.pdf
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Old 11-08-2013, 08:08 PM   #36
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Thermostat for 3 zone hydronic and forced air?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ba1drick View Post
It was pretty much 1x 8" return per 1,400sqf of each 2nd and 3rd floor. Totally insane. His argument was that the bulk of return air will be coming down through the stairway down to the furnace plenum. Don't have to tell you how loud that furnace was, with that big of an opening towards the hallway.

1. I think I have to study more about basement HVAC science.
2. Also figure out how to effectively use the sensor terminals on Ecobee thermostats.
3. And do some research on MARD control. I guess that even with oversized damper, since it's modulating, it would still do the job. Better to oversize than undersize, right?

Slightly over sized with a modulating bypass is ok. But only slightly oversized. Or it won't be able to close down enough when 2 zones are calling.

Another thing I still have to figure is how to include a whole house circ/dehu (Ultra-aire, not set on size/model yet) and how to wire it.
http://ultra-aire.com/pdf/Ultra-Aire...05H_Manual.pdf

It will have a fresh air supply with damper (for house dehu using lower humidity outside air) and unfortunately I won't have enough space for dedicated return. I guess return would have to be taking air from furnace return plenum and then dumping it back to supply plenum, like here: http://ultra-aire.com/pdf/Ultra-Aire...ly_Install.pdf
Pulling from the return is ok. they have a pretty good blower in them. So they can over come the supply side static.
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Old 11-19-2013, 05:50 PM   #37
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Thermostat for 3 zone hydronic and forced air?


I was checking MARD and controls found new Honeywell bypass damper, CPRD - constant pressure bypass damper.
Here are pdfs:
http://www.forwardthinking.honeywell...ks/50-1822.pdf
http://s3.pexsupply.com/product_file...structions.pdf
And Honeywell's install video:


It looks like you can set a required pressure and this damper will maintain it, adjusting for zone dampers. I don't see why it wouldn't work with different blower speeds.

At 1/3rd of the price and way easier install (no wiring!) it looks like amazing solution.
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Old 11-19-2013, 06:12 PM   #38
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Thermostat for 3 zone hydronic and forced air?


Spring loaded. Works pretty much like a regular barometric/weighted damper, just uses a spring instead. Should work ok though.

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