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Old 10-24-2013, 03:48 PM   #1
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Thermostat for 3 zone hydronic and forced air?


Conditions:
1. 3 zone hydronic floor heating, 3 zone pumps, 1 primary pump. Lochinvar Knight 155 mod-con. Basement slab, 1st floor and 2nd floor (extruded plates, insulated). Oversized boiler because of drive-under garage that might get additional modine heater. And global cooling on the way...
2. 3 zone forced air heat and cool. Trane XV95 (2 stage), 3.5 ton AC, ultra-aire dehu.
No controls installed yet. House is very well insulated. Leaning towards Honeywell Tru Zone.

No idea if such a thing exists, but here it goes:
1. Centralized (if possible) - 1 nice display panel, with multiple sensors for multiple zones.
2. Operating both forced air and hydronic. And dehu/circ. Trane furnace has variable speed fan and electronic cleaner that can circulate at very low speed, all the time.
3. Wifi enabled so it can be tinkered with from sofa or 2,000 miles away.
4. Forced air would be used between April and October (cooling June-Aug) and radiant November-March. Although recirc through forced air would be nice year round. So forced air mainly for cooling and late Spring/early Fall supplemental heat and possibly emergency heat if boiler fails.
5. Would love good reporting feature, like Ecobee.

Above alone might give me a negative answer on 1 centralized unit controlling everything.

If that's the case, and I have to use separate controls for hydronic and forced air, I would like to see my options too.
I know I can make it happen with hydronic on it's own and forced air alone, but i bet there are some new fancy products I am not aware about plus I would still like to control air quality (humidity/circ when hydronic runs on it's own and when we use just the wood burning stove)

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Old 10-24-2013, 04:50 PM   #2
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Thermostat for 3 zone hydronic and forced air?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ba1drick View Post
Conditions:
1. 3 zone hydronic floor heating, 3 zone pumps, 1 primary pump. Lochinvar Knight 155 mod-con. Basement slab, 1st floor and 2nd floor (extruded plates, insulated). Oversized boiler because of drive-under garage that might get additional modine heater. And global cooling on the way...
2. 3 zone forced air heat and cool. Trane XV95 (2 stage), 3.5 ton AC, ultra-aire dehu.
No controls installed yet. House is very well insulated. Leaning towards Honeywell Tru Zone.

No idea if such a thing exists, but here it goes:
1. Centralized (if possible) - 1 nice display panel, with multiple sensors for multiple zones.
2. Operating both forced air and hydronic. And dehu/circ. Trane furnace has variable speed fan and electronic cleaner that can circulate at very low speed, all the time.
3. Wifi enabled so it can be tinkered with from sofa or 2,000 miles away.
4. Forced air would be used between April and October (cooling June-Aug) and radiant November-March. Although recirc through forced air would be nice year round. So forced air mainly for cooling and late Spring/early Fall supplemental heat and possibly emergency heat if boiler fails.
5. Would love good reporting feature, like Ecobee.

Above alone might give me a negative answer on 1 centralized unit controlling everything.

If that's the case, and I have to use separate controls for hydronic and forced air, I would like to see my options too.
I know I can make it happen with hydronic on it's own and forced air alone, but i bet there are some new fancy products I am not aware about plus I would still like to control air quality (humidity/circ when hydronic runs on it's own and when we use just the wood burning stove)
And your question that you are asking is what exactly? I mean, if you are looking for advice, you didn't ask for any. Kind of tough to give input without asking questions.

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Old 10-27-2013, 11:16 PM   #3
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Thermostat for 3 zone hydronic and forced air?


I guess I have not included my question in the body of the post. It's in the title though.

Looking for specific thermostat or control solution for my situation. Would Honeywell IAQ handle it? Or are there better choices?
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Old 10-28-2013, 04:31 AM   #4
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Thermostat for 3 zone hydronic and forced air?


Don't believe there is currently thermostat that will do what you want.

You need separate thermostats for each zone.
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Old 10-28-2013, 10:04 AM   #5
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Thermostat for 3 zone hydronic and forced air?


Would I really need 6 thermostats?
I can see an advantage of having separate controls for hydronic and forced air, so with stacked set points one can act as emergency heat to another.

I am finding hydronic (heat only) specific thermostats are 1 per zone. That's what I have used before. Is Tekmar the only company that offers simple networked thermostats?

If I end up with 3 hydronic (1 per zone) thermostats, what about 1 centralized plus sensors for forced air? Would Redlink sensors sense just 1 variable at the time? Meaning I would need dedicated humidity sensor?

Just trying to take advantage of current technology. I would hate to do it the same like with my previous 2007 project, where I had 4 thermostats - 2 zones each of hydronic and forced air, with no remote control, no reporting, etc.
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Old 10-28-2013, 04:46 PM   #6
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Thermostat for 3 zone hydronic and forced air?


Just 3 thermostats. But 2 zone panels. 1 for the forced air, and 1 for the radiant/hydronic heat.

Not sure anyone makes what you want at this time.
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Old 10-31-2013, 06:31 PM   #7
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Thermostat for 3 zone hydronic and forced air?


Hydronic zone panel is Taco relay panel. Thermostat leads are 2 wire. Boiler is a mod/con unit so fire rate would depend on the load.
Forced air zone panel would probably be Honeywell Tru Zone. Not sure how many wires. Furnace is 2 stage heat.

Implications of 3 thermostats (1 per zone) and lets assume these units are all the same:
- likely no additional sensors required (as they would probably sense humidity too) which is good
- ability to select which stages are active
- ability to select a fallback stage, in case hydronic stage fails
- ability to make sure that forced air won't kick in for given time, as hydronic recovery time might be long
- how would 3 thermostats control a single dehu/circ, 1 humidifier and 1 EAC?

I know Ecobee can't do zoning (which is fine with above scenario) but can user select staging and do set things mentioned above? Would Honewell Prestige IAQ do it as well? Other options?
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Old 10-31-2013, 06:46 PM   #8
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Thermostat for 3 zone hydronic and forced air?


The Prestige can do what you want.

Most places use the radiant as first stage heat, and the forced air as second and third(when its a 2 stage furnace) stage heat.

However. radiant heat is not suppose to be set back, as it takes too long to recover, and defeats the main purpose of radiant heat. Which is comfort.

Only one of the Prestige stats would control the dehumidifier.
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Old 10-31-2013, 06:56 PM   #9
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Thermostat for 3 zone hydronic and forced air?


1. Can Prestige be set not to run stage 1 (radiant) at all during fall and spring? Or would I have to simply unplug the boiler from power

2. Are we still talking about 3 thermostats, so no zoning at thermostat level would be involved?

3. If only 1 thermostat does dehu/circ, wouldn't it interfere with damper operation? Is there a point having constant circ for EAC with zoning?

4. And finally, if forced air stage(s) are inactive, would it still be able to run EAC and circ/dehu?

Any notable differences between Ecobee and Honewell Prestige IAQ for my application?
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Old 10-31-2013, 07:06 PM   #10
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Thermostat for 3 zone hydronic and forced air?


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1. Can Prestige be set not to run stage 1 (radiant) at all during fall and spring? Or would I have to simply unplug the boiler from power

You would need to shut the boiler off. I still don't know why you would use the forced air instead of the radiant though.

2. Are we still talking about 3 thermostats, so no zoning at thermostat level would be involved?

Still just 3 thermostats, they don't know that they are connected to a zone panel, and they don't care.

3. If only 1 thermostat does dehu/circ, wouldn't it interfere with damper operation? Is there a point having constant circ for EAC with zoning?

Each thermostat can be set to fan "on", or to fan "circ". In fan
"on" mode. The dampers to all zones will be open as long as no other zone is calling for heating or cooling. So each zone would have air circulation.

So each zone would get the constant benefit of the dehumidifier also. Fan "circ" would work similar, just that each zone would only get air circ when either it calls for heat or cooling, or if it hasn't called for heat or cooling in 36 minutes, it will run the fan for 10 minutes.

4. And finally, if forced air stage(s) are inactive, would it still be able to run EAC and circ/dehu?

See above.

Any notable differences between Ecobee and Honewell Prestige IAQ for my application?
They're about the same for your application.
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Old 10-31-2013, 07:31 PM   #11
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Thermostat for 3 zone hydronic and forced air?


1. I wouldn't run hydronic probably until mid-late November mainly because of bigger heat mass (especially basement slab) that takes too long to warm up for just occasional heating. It does make sense in more constant cold weather, when boiler runs more often and maintains certain floor temp vs. allowing it to completely cool off and then having to reheat again. Some people even run constant circ for that matter.

3. So we are talking about power close dampers, right? If dampers are open all the time though, at what condition would they close? When 1 zone calls for hear or cool?

Assuming I have everything wired with TruZone for forced air:
- Ecobees would work just as standalone product, 3 thermostats directly to TruZone panel, right?
- Prestige IAQs would require some additional components, including Wireless Adapter and RedLink. How complex is the install?
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Old 10-31-2013, 07:34 PM   #12
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Thermostat for 3 zone hydronic and forced air?


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Originally Posted by Ba1drick View Post
1. I wouldn't run hydronic probably until mid-late November mainly because of bigger heat mass (especially basement slab) that takes too long to warm up for just occasional heating. It does make sense in more constant cold weather, when boiler runs more often and maintains certain floor temp vs. allowing it to completely cool off and then having to reheat again. Some people even run constant circ for that matter.

3. So we are talking about power close dampers, right? If dampers are open all the time though, at what condition would they close? When 1 zone calls for hear or cool?

Yes, power closed, spring open. They would close when a zone called for heat or cooling,.

Assuming I have everything wired with TruZone for forced air:
- Ecobees would work just as standalone product, 3 thermostats directly to TruZone panel, right?
- Prestige IAQs would require some additional components, including Wireless Adapter and RedLink. How complex is the install?
Only need EIM if you want to do wireless.
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Old 10-31-2013, 07:39 PM   #13
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Thermostat for 3 zone hydronic and forced air?


Same thing posted twice for some reason.

Sure I want wireless. Have you compared reporting feature of Ecobee vs Honeywell?

Last edited by Ba1drick; 10-31-2013 at 07:42 PM. Reason: doublepost
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Old 10-31-2013, 07:49 PM   #14
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Thermostat for 3 zone hydronic and forced air?


Ecobee has a better trending log/feature. But doesn't function better.
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Old 10-31-2013, 07:57 PM   #15
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Thermostat for 3 zone hydronic and forced air?


Well, Ecobee seems to be more and more appealing. I have to start looking into install info then to make sure it will work out with 3 split stages of heat. Manual lists:
- stage 1 cool
- stage 1 heat
- stage 2 heat(also AUX heat)
and then 1st, 2nd and 3rd accessory relays

At the same time it says 4heat/2cool stages. Does it mean accessory relays are assignable? How would it assign it?

I still need dehu, humidifier and AC relays, right?

http://www.ecobee.com/wp-content/the...ENG_V23web.pdf

http://www.ecobee.com/wp-content/the...-141010WEB.pdf


Last edited by Ba1drick; 10-31-2013 at 07:59 PM.
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