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Old 07-28-2010, 12:37 AM   #16
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Stop Whining Blower


If your contractor is getting a lot of complaints about noise. He is doing something wrong. And you need another contractor.
VS blowers are not noisy, on proper sized duct systems. When they are set up right.

A 3 ton A/C doesn't need more then 1200 CFM. Unless its in a high altitude area(over 3,000 foot), or in an arid area, like a desert.

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Old 07-28-2010, 04:08 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vdu View Post
After the installer came and check, he said the system is running fine. The pressure is good. He said I need to have the system running at higher CFM. He said the house is 82 degree F, but return temperature of the freon is 55 degree F. The pressure is also good. I asked if would use a cheap filter with lower Merc help? He said it won't help. He showed me by pulling out the filters. He said with less friction, the fan just blow even slower due to variable speed motor. I asked him what about the whining noise. He said variable speed motor works like that. Many of his customers complain, and then they replace another one, with same old noise.
So, in conclusion, if I turn the CFM higher, the house get cooled, but there is whining motor noise, and there is not much I can do about that.
I wonder if my supply duct is too big, and the system detects low friction, so it doesn't turn the fan as much, which reduces CFM. In principle, the CFM should stay the same, it just reduce the speed so that not more CFM is blowing through.
What do you think?
You should have advised your blower was a VS type from post number one. But that is water under the bridge now and as Been said VS motors do not whine unless the duct work is terribly under sized.

These guys don't sound like they did too good a job. I would call the factory (ph# is in your manuals) and ask for a referral to one of the dealers the factory has high regard for. You will probably be assessed a charge to survey the installation for corrections (assuming there are any). But at least you will have the ammo to go against the other guy if it's in need of copious correction.
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Old 07-28-2010, 02:32 PM   #18
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According to the calculation here:

http://efficientcomfort.net/jsp/ResDuct_Web.jsp

The duct can indeed support higher CFM, but not 1800 CFM. When setting the machine at around 1540 CFM, the whining is there, but not loud, probably acceptable. The supply duct probably can handle 1800 CFM easily. I am thinking of going with lower Merc to see if it helps, because many people said going with high Merc, their systems do produce whining noise.
What I don't get is that why going with higher CFM, the system can indeed cool down the house with the same tonage/condenser. I understand I can go with a different contractor, but it will cost money. As I said above, take out the filters, 1800 CFM doesn't produce anything whining noise. So, if using that logic, if I go with lower Merc filter, and it also works well, then what could be a problem with that? (It's a question, not a rhetorical question.)
Also, would someone please tell if it's true that VS blower has issue with large duct? I heard problem small duct, but not large duct. My duct is definitely large enough for 1200 CFM, but not 1800 CFM. I did read somewhere people saying VS has some issue with large duct. I'll try to find a source for that.
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Old 07-28-2010, 02:47 PM   #19
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There is one thread that talks about oversized duct here:
http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=77534&page=2

Quote:
"The ECM may need a minimum level of static (resistance to air flow).
This can easily be achieved by a manual damper at the main supply and return ducts."

I wonder if this is the case.
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Old 07-28-2010, 02:51 PM   #20
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Same thread, next page:
"A HVAC contractor emailed me to say that he had a conference call with a couple of Carrier engineers (state and regional) and they were very concerned that the Infinity variable speed blowers would NOT be compatible with my oversized ducts. That doesn't fit with info in this thread (and other threads) and I'm not sure what to do. I definitely want to use VS blowers to save energy but it might be tough to get a warranty on the equipment. Any ideas on how I should proceed?"

Also, from another page and 2 links inside it:

http://hphaa.com/picpages/101/accapacity.htm
http://hphaa.com/picpages/newcoil/newcoil.htm
http://hphaa.com/picpages/samesize/bigcoils&bigair.htm

Increase air flow is not a big no no. If the coil is big enough to support it, it does help. The downside is that less moister will be removed. So that is something I have to watch for in my house.

From the calculator above, my return and supply can be within Manual D for even for 1700 CFM. For 1200 CFM, the air flow is only around 410 CFM for supply, and it obviously not enough. I can see a lot of condensation around the plenum. So the articles above are right on. I think changing it so it goes between 600 and 700 CFM is better. So far, I don't have any noise issue with the supply trunk. For the return, below 1540 CFM, it is fine with the wind noise. Little with the blower whining. I am going to try to address the blower whining with less restrictive air filters.

Last edited by vdu; 07-28-2010 at 03:24 PM.
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Old 07-28-2010, 05:05 PM   #21
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That duct calculator web page you used tells you nothing about your duct system. Unless you know the TEL of it. And the ASP you have for the blower.

Total Equivalent Length.
Available Static Pressure.

Which, you probably don't know either.

As long as your VS blower is working against more then .1" static, no problem. Considering that your evap coil will be atleast .17", you don't have too low of a static.

Set the thing to 1200 CFM. And let it have time to get the humidity down. It will lower temp after it removes enough moisture from your home.

Higher CFM removes less moisture, but gives you a few BTUs more toward lowering temp.

Its better to have lower humidity, then a lower temp.
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Old 08-06-2010, 03:24 PM   #22
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Thank you for the response. I ordered the 8 Merv, and tried the 1200 CFM again. That still produced noise from the system, not the air (same as before before). So, I increased it to 450 CFM per ton, which is not un-usual, and still, noise is there.

With turning the blower with my hand and the blower makes noise, I am pretty sure it's not good. The problem is that I can replace it, but Goodman won't honor. The guy did the install would charge me for doing it (he said $150). But, also added that the noise will still be there, which I don't believe a good system would work like that.

I noticed further that the liquid line is about 6/10 of the diameter around the 90 degree curve bend near the TXV valve. I can hear noise right at that area, indicating restriction of the freon flow. If I have to get someone else doing this, how much would it cost to braze this?

If I recall correctly, I don't think the guy did nitrogen through the pipe. I am really concern that the valve will be clogged someday.

I am really mad right now because I thought the guy have a company, and promised to have a license. I even wonder if he has a license now. I also choose him because I didn't go with the lowest bid. Watching videos on the net, it's rather easy stuff, I wonder why they didn't do it right. I solder coper pipe before, this is just brazing, same thing, different temperature and equipment. I also don't have other equipment, but it doesn't add that much more work.

Also, before, I saw the guy open the door, and the safety switch would shut the system down. I know that's the wrong way of doing it, and I would use the disconnect switch. However, just to see if that work, I did it and it didn't shutdown the system. I wonder if something went wrong now with this.
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Old 08-06-2010, 10:47 PM   #23
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Can you make a recording of this noise. And post in on u tube.

Is it a bend, or an ell at the indoor unit.
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Old 08-06-2010, 11:06 PM   #24
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I will record 3 noises tomorrow. 1 for the hand turning noise. 1 for the during the system running (hopefully the system noise will go through over the wind blowing noise), and the 3rd one, the noise at the liquid line.

The liquid line is a non-sharp L going into the coil unit. I will take a picture of that too. That will be tomorrow morning.
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Old 08-07-2010, 02:01 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vdu View Post
I will record 3 noises tomorrow. 1 for the hand turning noise. 1 for the during the system running (hopefully the system noise will go through over the wind blowing noise), and the 3rd one, the noise at the liquid line.

.
Can you also make a copy for the hearing impaired? I am deaf and would like to know what the sound is like too.

May be a window with a person interpreting the sound in International Hand Signing Language?

If you did this you would have the gratitude of all the deaf HVAC techs.

Thank you.
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Old 08-07-2010, 04:39 PM   #26
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@hvaclover I would if I can. I am sorry to leave you out :-)

Actually, it was hard for me to record the noise when turning by hand. It just doesn't pick up at all. I also found out that if setting the fan speed at 1400, no more noise is heard other than the wind blowing. Now, I am only concern about why it's not cooling down quick enough. I will upload the images of the liquid line later on.

I realized that previously, I tried 1200 CFM, 1260 CFM (1400 - 140), and 1540 CFM (1400 + 140). Those values somehow produce noise.
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Old 08-08-2010, 04:48 PM   #27
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Video of the liquid line here:



It's not only much thiner than the normal tube, it got squeezed in the middle of the "thin" line, so it's a big problem I think.



Should it be a T (with 1 end capped) instead? Doing that, it's not curved (better flow), but it is not squeezed in like this. Also, the guy somehow have the PVC pipe right in there, so there is a space issue. I think a T or L would make it easier to install, but I don't think it's hard either way. It just needs to be done right.

The videos don't look good because they resize it. Please photos versions below.

Last edited by vdu; 08-08-2010 at 04:56 PM.
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Old 08-08-2010, 04:57 PM   #28
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1) Picture 1, the line get much smaller (squeezed)
2) Picture 2, the inside of the curve even get pushed in.
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Old 08-08-2010, 04:59 PM   #29
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Please advice should I ask the guy to come over to redo this.
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Old 08-08-2010, 05:05 PM   #30
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Couldn't hear any noise that was loud or object able in those short recordings.

While the bend looks a bit less then ideal. It doesn't look like its causing any trouble.

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