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Old 02-26-2009, 02:33 PM   #16
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short on/off cycle times for burner/inducer


The electrostatic filter was installed by me years ago - wife has allergies. My bad? The burner cycle times didn't seem to vary much whether I used the elecrostaic or cheap fiberglass filter. Maybe you see more to this than I do?

I'll get the sizes of the duct work.

As far as riding the high limit, would yellow wisps in the flames cause this? I posted a web link (above) to a video I uploaded to YouTube..... here it is again if you didn't see it... Would adjusting the mixture of the flame eliminate riding at the high limit, and cause the burners to have longer cycle times?

I have not yet tried adjusting the thermostat cycle time for my 90% AFUE unit. Info on that above. Would that help?
Thnaks for helping with this!

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Old 02-26-2009, 04:19 PM   #17
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short on/off cycle times for burner/inducer


looks kinda orange flames to me. The flames in the back look kinda lazy. How long have you had/ noticed the problem that you are having... Again if it's cycling off on the limit instead of the t.stat. It's not a good thing. If you don't know which is cycling the unit off. Wire the white wire and red together at the t. stat. If it's cycling at the limit you will know Hard to tell if the faf is too large. Get a heat load cal. & you will know Dirty a coil will short cycle the limit. Insulation that has come loose in the duct work blocking air flow will also cause it


I just noticed in your other thread that you had inducer fan motor troubles. This could also cause the problems discussed in this thread.. check for blocked vent also. If this is a 90 % furnace you don't have a fan inducer you have forced venting system. induced draft are 80 % furnaces

Last edited by kenmac; 02-26-2009 at 04:35 PM.
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Old 02-26-2009, 04:57 PM   #18
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short on/off cycle times for burner/inducer


Flame clean up won't solve your problem.
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Old 02-26-2009, 05:12 PM   #19
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short on/off cycle times for burner/inducer


How much variation can you program in on the Thermostat? Don't some allow you increase the cycle times by changing the temperature ranges?
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Old 02-26-2009, 06:18 PM   #20
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short on/off cycle times for burner/inducer


I noticed the burner/vent blower cycling often because the vent blower is vibrating and rumbling through the duct work. I can see exhaust outside where the PVC exits the house, and no clogs in the drian. It seems to be pushing exhaust just fine. I'm planning on replacing it provide I didn't have bigger problems, like burners or heat exchanger. I can't afford to replace it to see if it's the problem. Will a vibrating vent blower cause the flames to burn somewhat orange, and/or cause the burners to cycle this often?

The burner/vent blower consistenly cycles on for ~1:15, off for ~1:00...., even when the stat says "system on" and blower is running continuously all the while.

I don't have central air so I assume I wouldn't have a coil either. I looked in the furnace vent - the top of the heat exchanger isn't dusty and there isn't any loose insulation that I can see. The insullation in the blower compartment is stuck to the sides of the sheet metal.

Crossed the white and red wires at the stat to eliminate it:
I used a timer over a period of 10 minutes 35 seconds; at 1:15 the burner turned off, at 2:14 the burner turned on, at 3:45 burner turned off etc.....
Time Cycled Temp
0:00 on 60 (missed the time)
0:00 off 135 (missed the time)
0:00 on 130 (on for 1 min 15 sec)
1:15 off 155 (off for 59 sec)
2:14 on 135 (on for 1 min 31 sec)
3:45 off 155 (off for 55 sec)
4:40 on 140 (on for 1 min 20 sec)
6:00 off 155 (off for 55 sec)
6:55 on 142 (on for 1 min 20 sec)
8:15 off 153 (off for 1 min)
9:15 on 142 (on for 1 min 20)
10:35 off 158 (off)

Quote:
Originally Posted by diggerdave View Post
One other thing I found....
The furnace user manual mentions you might be able to adjust the thermostat heat anticipator if you are experiencing short on cycles. The thermostat manual says, "the thermostat on-time is factory set for a warm air, gas or oil heating system (screw A & B in, which is currently the case). But it also says "Important - When using a high efficiency furnace such as a 90% or greater AFUE (Average Fuel Utilization Efficiency) unit, adjust screw A out one turn and leave screw B in."
Will this adjustment help?


The other thread:
Heil furnace inducer vibrating, capcitor handling question - Heil furnace inducer vibrating, capcitor handling question
We have a Heil natural gas furnace about 18 years old (Model #NUGK075DG07 - 867.769426). The exhauset inducer was replaced about 10 years ago. I had the natural gas shut off to the whole house Saturday while I replaced my water heater, re-routed it's gas line and added a gas shut-off valve. The furnace ran fine when I turned the gas back on. But Sunday morning I noticed the inducer was vibrating and rumbling through the duct work.
I checked the exhaust vent line - no clogs, but I did wipe up some moisture/water build up at the inducer body exhaust port. It seems a little bit quieter today. I'm beginning to think a lot of condensation built up in the inducer while the furnace was shut down (I'm in Wisconsin).
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Last edited by diggerdave; 02-26-2009 at 10:11 PM.
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Old 02-26-2009, 09:59 PM   #21
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short on/off cycle times for burner/inducer


Remove the main blower and crawl in the fan compartment on your back/look up and check the SECONDARY coil for dirt/blockage and clean it. All those crummy furnaces with 165 deg limit controls tend to ride the limit control. I also find that the blowers in those units are good for 2 tons of cooling instead of the 3 you get in a modern/newer unit. Unless they have larger ductwork they have a poor capacity/underdesigned blower. Also open the bonnet at the top and see if any of the foil insulation beside the heat exchanger is falling off and blocking the air flow. Another problem may be the limit control itself. After they have been cycled on/off too many times some of them lose their accuracy and get weaker and cycle at a lower temp or fail. The bi-metal ones are bad for that.

Last edited by yuri; 02-26-2009 at 10:10 PM.
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Old 02-26-2009, 10:21 PM   #22
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short on/off cycle times for burner/inducer


Connecting the white and red wire at the thermostat didn't make a difference - it still ran the high limit between 140-160 degrees with the same burner short cycle times. But at least we know it's not the stat (right?)

I set the stat for use on a 90% AFUE unit, it didn't make a difference either.

I found the old stat - didn't make a difference either.

Last edited by diggerdave; 02-27-2009 at 06:18 AM.
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Old 02-26-2009, 10:40 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yuri View Post
Remove the main blower and crawl in the fan compartment on your back/look up and check the SECONDARY coil for dirt/blockage and clean it. All those crummy furnaces with 165 deg limit controls tend to ride the limit control. I also find that the blowers in those units are good for 2 tons of cooling instead of the 3 you get in a modern/newer unit. Unless they have larger ductwork they have a poor capacity/underdesigned blower. Also open the bonnet at the top and see if any of the foil insulation beside the heat exchanger is falling off and blocking the air flow. Another problem may be the limit control itself. After they have been cycled on/off too many times some of them lose their accuracy and get weaker and cycle at a lower temp or fail. The bi-metal ones are bad for that.
Do I have a secondary coil? I don't have central air. Is this the same as a secondary heat exchanger?

What is the bonnet? The duct work above the primary heat exchanger?
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Old 02-26-2009, 11:12 PM   #24
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short on/off cycle times for burner/inducer


Quote:
Originally Posted by beenthere View Post
Might want the manifold pressure checked also.
I'm not sure what to do here what to look for.. ?
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Old 02-26-2009, 11:45 PM   #25
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short on/off cycle times for burner/inducer


Quote:
Originally Posted by yuri View Post
Remove the main blower and crawl in the fan compartment on your back/look up and check the SECONDARY coil for dirt/blockage and clean it. All those crummy furnaces with 165 deg limit controls tend to ride the limit control. I also find that the blowers in those units are good for 2 tons of cooling instead of the 3 you get in a modern/newer unit. Unless they have larger ductwork they have a poor capacity/underdesigned blower. Also open the bonnet at the top and see if any of the foil insulation beside the heat exchanger is falling off and blocking the air flow. Another problem may be the limit control itself. After they have been cycled on/off too many times some of them lose their accuracy and get weaker and cycle at a lower temp or fail. The bi-metal ones are bad for that.
LISTEN TO THIS GUY HE KNOWS

IF YOU HAVE A DIGITAL STAT YOU DON'T HAVE TO ADJUST THE HEAT ANTICAPATOR

IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING AT CALL A PRO!!!!!

This heat exchanger has a primary and secondary has nothing to do with the a/c..CALL A PRO

REALLY IS IT WORTH YOUR LIFE, YURI HAS TOLD YOU WHAT TO LOOK AT AND YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND..CALL A PRO

Not trying to be an aZZ but really call a pro and watch and ask question so you understand.
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Old 02-27-2009, 04:16 AM   #26
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short on/off cycle times for burner/inducer


Quote:
Originally Posted by diggerdave View Post
Connecting the white and red wire at the thermostat didn't make a difference - it still ran the high limit between 140-160 degrees with the same burner short cycle times. But at least we know it's not the stat (right?) I set the stat for use on a 90% AFUE unit, it didn't make a difference either. I found the old stat - what the heck I'll try it....
WOW Your WAAAY out of line Plumber 101. You may not be tryin....but your bein. What happened was there wasn't any reply to my post for a while. While I was waiting I decided to try the thermostat adjustment that's recomended by the stat manufacturer for a 90% AFUE unit, and retest the burner cycle times. I had the time! Since I had new information I decidede to update with another post. While I was writing my post so was Yuri writing his (but I didn't know that). After I clicked on Save Post, the page refreshed, and wolla, there was Yuri's post before mine. Simply put, our posts got crossed. It happens.

Now to a person that hasn't kept up with this thread, my post after Yuri's could be misinterpreted as me blowing off Yuri's suggestions - which is absolutely NOT the case! YES I PLAN ON LISTENING TO YURI and following his suggestions - as well as any other pros here - I appreciate their input very much. I just cant get to it until tomorrow morning (family was in bed at 8:00pm).

I've done a lot of reading over the past week (educating myself with manuals, this board and with Google); some furnaces have both primary and secondary exchangers, some only primary. Yuri said "SECONDARY COIL" not secondary exchanger. I wanted to make it clear I don't have a/c or an evap coil. I understood every word Yuri said and why. I just needed to clarify.

"Call a pro.. watch and ask questions". You mean I cant ask questions here, I have to call a pro? Really, last I checked this was DIYChatroom.com (DO IT YOURSELF CHATROOM) not Lennox.com where pros chat to pros. If the pros didn't want to graciously help people on forums like these they wouldn't be here - They'd be on Lennox.com hangin out with other pros. I'm not a pro, I'm a DIY. If I cant ask questions here, then we might as well shut this board down. The only difference between me asking questions and verifying my suspicions here, and me calling a pro, is $100+/hr and his time.

I cant afford to call a pro right now; but I do have the will, time and cappacity to learn. I don't know what economy your livin in, but I lost my good job due to downsizing, unemplyment ran out, I'm having a hell of a time finding permanant work in my field, I'm taking any work I can get, were living off a day care salary!, have a kid on the way, our car has 400,000 miles on it and needs to be replaced this month... Time's are rough but I'll get through it. That's why I'm here on this board.

Sure I'll call a pro when I'm in over my head. I know my limits. I just got done installing a new gas water heater, moving gas lines, installing gas valves and new water lines (solid pipe, no flex) and doing leak tests. I'm a mechanial, electrical, automotive, welding, construction, kind of guy. I do a lot of it. If I ever felt I was in over my head, and it could risk the safety of my family, I would stop and call a pro.
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Old 02-27-2009, 06:00 AM   #27
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short on/off cycle times for burner/inducer


You would need a manometer to check manifold pressure.

Your gas valve may be letting more gas through then it should.

Trying to adjust it by eye, can cause other problems, so with out a manometer, its not worthwhile adjusting.
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Old 02-27-2009, 07:56 AM   #28
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short on/off cycle times for burner/inducer


It won't let me delete this post. I'am through

Last edited by kenmac; 02-27-2009 at 08:05 AM.
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Old 02-27-2009, 09:25 AM   #29
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short on/off cycle times for burner/inducer


Quote:
Originally Posted by diggerdave View Post
WOW Your WAAAY out of line Plumber 101. You may not be tryin....but your bein. What happened was there wasn't any reply to my post for a while. While I was waiting I decided to try the thermostat adjustment that's recomended by the stat manufacturer for a 90% AFUE unit, and retest the burner cycle times. I had the time! Since I had new information I decidede to update with another post. While I was writing my post so was Yuri writing his (but I didn't know that). After I clicked on Save Post, the page refreshed, and wolla, there was Yuri's post before mine. Simply put, our posts got crossed. It happens.

Now to a person that hasn't kept up with this thread, my post after Yuri's could be misinterpreted as me blowing off Yuri's suggestions - which is absolutely NOT the case! YES I PLAN ON LISTENING TO YURI and following his suggestions - as well as any other pros here - I appreciate their input very much. I just cant get to it until tomorrow morning (family was in bed at 8:00pm).

I've done a lot of reading over the past week (educating myself with manuals, this board and with Google); some furnaces have both primary and secondary exchangers, some only primary. Yuri said "SECONDARY COIL" not secondary exchanger. I wanted to make it clear I don't have a/c or an evap coil. I understood every word Yuri said and why. I just needed to clarify.

"Call a pro.. watch and ask questions". You mean I cant ask questions here, I have to call a pro? Really, last I checked this was DIYChatroom.com (DO IT YOURSELF CHATROOM) not Lennox.com where pros chat to pros. If the pros didn't want to graciously help people on forums like these they wouldn't be here - They'd be on Lennox.com hangin out with other pros. I'm not a pro, I'm a DIY. If I cant ask questions here, then we might as well shut this board down. The only difference between me asking questions and verifying my suspicions here, and me calling a pro, is $100+/hr and his time.

I cant afford to call a pro right now; but I do have the will, time and cappacity to learn. I don't know what economy your livin in, but I lost my good job due to downsizing, unemplyment ran out, I'm having a hell of a time finding permanant work in my field, I'm taking any work I can get, were living off a day care salary!, have a kid on the way, our car has 400,000 miles on it and needs to be replaced this month... Time's are rough but I'll get through it. That's why I'm here on this board.

Sure I'll call a pro when I'm in over my head. I know my limits. I just got done installing a new gas water heater, moving gas lines, installing gas valves and new water lines (solid pipe, no flex) and doing leak tests. I'm a mechanial, electrical, automotive, welding, construction, kind of guy. I do a lot of it. If I ever felt I was in over my head, and it could risk the safety of my family, I would stop and call a pro.

The Caps were to indicate the importance of this issue. Yuri is one of the best around and is info from what I have seen is golden. And I had read the complete thread.

I can understand that time are tough although I was trying to show you the importance of getting a pro when you need to not to just waste your dollars. When PRO's come to this site and give info to DIY'rs they are trying to help but give info that will help and promote the safety in doing the work not only for you but your family. A $75 service call is alot cheaper thay a $10,000 funeral. If I came off and hard or out of line then I apoligize to you for that.

With that said, I think as Yuri, that your heat exchanger has a restriction and it needs to be inspected. Now why is it restricted. It could be that you have had a high gas pressure/flow causing a incomplete burn and soot is being produced and built up causing your restriction and the manifold gas pressure needs to be checked with a manometer. Thus cycling on limit. Gas pressure is check in "inches of water column"

It is also true that after the limit has cycled several time it to now may be faulty.

Again soory if I offended you
Plumber101

Last edited by Plumber101; 02-27-2009 at 09:30 AM.
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Old 02-27-2009, 02:12 PM   #30
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Yeah it didn't come accross right because I was planning on doing what Yuri said, and I understood him. I've been burning the candle at both ends so to speak lately - trying to get of of my mess. I absoulutely respect and appreciate the help I'm getting on this site - for free. I owe you guys (cheers). I too am the kind of guy that helps people out as a friend or at work in tech support services, such as yourselves. It can be be frustrating when it's not appreciated but expected or blown off. I do understand.

Like Yuri said, I want to pull the blower and check the air flow all around the exchanger, before I call someone in to check the manifold pressure (that's something I would not be comfortable tweeking, connecting a gas line yes). I couldn't make a lot of noise last night with people sleeping. I will try to go through that today/tomorrow and get back to you with what I find.

I did gently vacume out under the burners, carefull not to move anything, but I did not see soot by the burners. I'll check up in the secondary exchanger. The condition of the burners did look good - I didn't see any holes or rusting etc. The tops of the burner orifaces looked good. There is a small delay between when the gas flows and the burners ignite. I would think that is normal, but It does flash a little out the front of the burner tubes where the air/gas mixture is adjusted. I have to leave in a bit but I'll take a short video sometime today and post it to see what you guys think. I see how that can be directly related to the gas pressure being to high and the limit shutoff...

Great info. I cant thank you guys enough. Thank You Thank You Thank You. And Thank You.....

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Last edited by diggerdave; 02-27-2009 at 02:15 PM.
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