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Old 09-23-2009, 07:51 AM   #31
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Recessed/Can Lighting Heat Loss?


This has come up before.

Can you each provide a short citation and let us all hash over it?

It seems to come down to:
are any unique designs
that have not been specifically tested by some gov. agency
OK anyway?

Certainly a computer fan running in the middle of a large room is not a problem for anyone.
When does it start being a problem? And why?

How 'bout if the designer has equations to back up the design?

How 'bout if he/she made some measurements to confirm the safety?

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Old 09-23-2009, 09:27 AM   #32
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Recessed/Can Lighting Heat Loss?


Agreed, operation of a computer fan in a room would not be an issue. However, actual installation (hard-wiring, mounting, concealment) of such a device in a dwelling unit would not be in line with the listing of that device, and would thereby violate the NEC code.

Electrical devices are typically tested by UL, NFPA, etc. Even the ICC does testing and issues ES reports covering use and installation of products relative to code acceptance. Government agency testing could happen I suppose but that's not a requirement.
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Old 09-23-2009, 11:38 AM   #33
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Recessed/Can Lighting Heat Loss?


Quote:
Originally Posted by thekctermite View Post
I love your passive-aggressive approach as usual.

Show me a product listing, a code section, a scan of the code commentary page, a picture of a compliant installation....Something other than your opinion. You say I'm wrong. Prove it.
I am not a patient so please don't make references that infer personal psychological health.

That was enough of a flame job to make me want to bow out this discussion.
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Old 09-23-2009, 02:33 PM   #34
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Recessed/Can Lighting Heat Loss?


I don't want to get into the middle of an argument here if it can be done to code or not..... If the op wants to add a computer fan .... He would need a 120ac to 12vdc transformer or power supply. Depending on which fans he decides and how many he might need a 450 power supply, then run all the wires to code. If a fan puke's how will he access it? Back up into the attic? Also the fans would need to be interlocked with the light switch so they would not run all the time. So you are wasting more ac to run the fans. I hope that Yoyizit can spit out some numbers as to what I am talking about. All I know is that it isn't cheap to run power supply's.
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Old 09-23-2009, 02:51 PM   #35
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Recessed/Can Lighting Heat Loss?


Quote:
Originally Posted by hvaclover View Post
I am not a patient so please don't make references that infer personal psychological health.

That was enough of a flame job to make me want to bow out this discussion.
I'd think that someone so talented at dishing it out could take it a little better.
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Old 09-23-2009, 03:27 PM   #36
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Recessed/Can Lighting Heat Loss?


what did you tell me in PM? I comply and now you jump me knowing I won't
and can't respond in kind.

Besides you are a mod and are supposed to be above pettiness of baiting and name calling because you enforce the rules.

Had i said to you what you posted to me earlier, I'd be banned right now as you so eloquently pointed.
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Last edited by hvaclover; 09-23-2009 at 03:34 PM.
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Old 09-23-2009, 03:43 PM   #37
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Recessed/Can Lighting Heat Loss?


Guys, you're both major posters on this site. Is this really the view we want newbies like Tom (OP) and even me to have of the site. Just let it drop. It can't go good places from here.
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Old 09-23-2009, 04:39 PM   #38
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Recessed/Can Lighting Heat Loss?


WaldenL's right.

There's nothing wrong with disagreement and we obviously have one here. However I find it best to get some resolution to the issue at hand (fans installed to cool can lights) in case future users who might be considering such an installation read through all the gobbledyguck on this thread in an effort to find out if it is ok or not. Hopefully somebody will have some information which might prove me wrong, and I'll eat crow!

HVAClover, feel free to PM me if we need to continue this. I never jumped you, I simply asked for documentation and substantiation of your statements referencing the described installation, sorry if you take it that way. The PM you received a couple weeks ago containing my threat to ban you had to do with your use of the F word on this site and continual namecalling, confrontation with users and belittleing of users, not to do with anything between you and me.
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Old 09-23-2009, 04:54 PM   #39
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Recessed/Can Lighting Heat Loss?


Quote:
Originally Posted by newtech View Post
I don't want to get into the middle of an argument here if it can be done to code or not..... If the op wants to add a computer fan .... He would need a 120ac to 12vdc transformer or power supply. Depending on which fans he decides and how many he might need a 450 power supply, then run all the wires to code. If a fan puke's how will he access it? Back up into the attic? Also the fans would need to be interlocked with the light switch so they would not run all the time. So you are wasting more ac to run the fans. I hope that Yoyizit can spit out some numbers as to what I am talking about. All I know is that it isn't cheap to run power supply's.
BAM

Wish I had this post to read last night!

I killed a PC fan. I rigged it up directly to a circuit running my light. Tried it. The fan popped and died. The light stayed on just fine.

Different supply needs.. Duh!?! spare fan.. Oh well.

Also... Your considerations for power to run them, doesn't seem worth it right now.


Thanks
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Old 09-23-2009, 04:59 PM   #40
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Recessed/Can Lighting Heat Loss?


While the theory of using a fan to blow the warm air back into the living space is cool, I think the reality is it would be much easier to just use CFLs and have less heat

If you were hell bent on the idea, they do make 120V fans (http://www.minute-man.com/acatalog/120V_AC_Fans.html) but I would simply revert to my previous post, and use air tight IC cans and not worry 'bout it.
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Old 09-23-2009, 05:17 PM   #41
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Recessed/Can Lighting Heat Loss?


The cans that you might want to look into for minimizing heat loss are ICAT rated cans (Insulation Contact Air Tight). They make new construction and remodel housings in these:

IC cans alone are great because you can insulate right up to them but they'll still leak air and heat to some degree. Not sure of the added expense but I imagine it is fairly insignificant and would probably be worthwhile to spring for ICAT rated housings. To my knowledge these are not sold in most box stores or hardware stores...You'd probably need to go to an electric supply house. They also make a gasketed trim kit to minimize heat loss/drafts.
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Old 09-23-2009, 05:43 PM   #42
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Recessed/Can Lighting Heat Loss?


Sure...make me go check my cans
For my cathedral ceilings I bought Halo - IC-AT cans - from Home Depot
So that is also what is in my sunroom & probably why no snow melt this past winter

There are several issues here:
#1 excessive heat buildup & the thermal sensor shuts the light off
..........switching to CFL's solves this problem

#2 heat loss thru the recessed can
......in summer you don't mind maybe losing that heat
......in the winter you don't want that heat in the rafter bays possibly causing snow melt & ice dams
......you also don't want HOUSE heat loss thru the cans
......the lights aren't on all the time, do you want a "hole" leaking heat from your house 24x7 ?

The cost of heating a house is not going to go down LONG TERM
So it's best to insulate & seal leaks NOW & save $$ long term

I can't see any valid reason for needing a fan on a recessed light
Buy the proper can, install a CFL
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Old 09-23-2009, 06:00 PM   #43
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Recessed/Can Lighting Heat Loss?


Quote:
Originally Posted by newtech
I don't want to get into the middle of an argument here if it can be done to code or not..... If the op wants to add a computer fan .... He would need a 120ac to 12vdc transformer or power supply. Depending on which fans he decides and how many he might need a 450 power supply, then run all the wires to code. If a fan puke's how will he access it? Back up into the attic? Also the fans would need to be interlocked with the light switch so they would not run all the time. So you are wasting more ac to run the fans. I hope that Yoyizit can spit out some numbers as to what I am talking about. All I know is that it isn't cheap to run power supply's.


You do know we are talking residential?
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Old 09-23-2009, 06:57 PM   #44
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Recessed/Can Lighting Heat Loss?


Quote:
Originally Posted by thekctermite View Post
The cans that you might want to look into for minimizing heat loss are ICAT rated cans (Insulation Contact Air Tight). They make new construction and remodel housings in these:

IC cans alone are great because you can insulate right up to them but they'll still leak air and heat to some degree. Not sure of the added expense but I imagine it is fairly insignificant and would probably be worthwhile to spring for ICAT rated housings. To my knowledge these are not sold in most box stores or hardware stores...You'd probably need to go to an electric supply house. They also make a gasketed trim kit to minimize heat loss/drafts.
That is pretty well what I have.
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Old 09-23-2009, 08:44 PM   #45
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Recessed/Can Lighting Heat Loss?


I need to say I'm sorry to HVAClover for using the word "passive-agressive" to describe some of his posts. It was not my intent to infer that he has a mental condition, and I regret that it was taken that way. I was simply referring to the content of some posts.

We've had our problems, and I'll admit that I've warned him about personal attacks and it sets a bad example as a moderator for me to make a post that could be taken as one.

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