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Old 09-20-2009, 05:26 AM   #16
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Recessed/Can Lighting Heat Loss?


I'm not a fan of recessed lights. Because most are not air tight, or installed right.
But, as long as they are air tights. And installed right. No problem.

Make sure you can insulate around them in the attic properly after they are installed. Thats another thing that is over looked many times.

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Old 09-20-2009, 11:04 PM   #17
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Recessed/Can Lighting Heat Loss?


Quote:
Originally Posted by beenthere View Post
I'm not a fan of recessed lights. Because most are not air tight, or installed right.
But, as long as they are air tights. And installed right. No problem.

Make sure you can insulate around them in the attic properly after they are installed. Thats another thing that is over looked many times.
I see. What tips do you have for the DIYer to do it the right way?
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Old 09-20-2009, 11:35 PM   #18
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Recessed/Can Lighting Heat Loss?


The airlock cans are fairly tight. Be sure to get IC rated cans if you plan to insulate around them!!!
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Old 09-21-2009, 05:26 AM   #19
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Recessed/Can Lighting Heat Loss?


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Originally Posted by thekctermite View Post
Be sure to get IC rated cans if you plan to insulate around them!!!

I've made insulated boxes for them. Out of duct board.

Make the box large enough that it has a little room between it and the can.
Helps to keep the light housing from getting too hot.
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Old 09-22-2009, 12:41 AM   #20
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Recessed/Can Lighting Heat Loss?


I am onto the same job. Recessed lights into an insulated ceiling.

This thread opened my eyes already! Thanks.

The Cans I have came with strips of a heat retardent material to fill the holes to make it air tight. A finger on these, they are always barely warm. Even when the can is much hotter.

The fellow who sold me them and an electrician told me pink insulation can touch and even go ontop the cans.

I like the little fan Idea.

Perhaps a PC fan rigged in the back of each of them.

Thanks!
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Old 09-22-2009, 01:30 AM   #21
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Recessed/Can Lighting Heat Loss?


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Perhaps a PC fan rigged in the back of each of them.
Nope, that wouldn't be acceptable for installation in a concealed space, and you can't modify listed electrical equipment in such a way.
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Old 09-22-2009, 02:25 AM   #22
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Recessed/Can Lighting Heat Loss?


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Nope, that wouldn't be acceptable for installation in a concealed space, and you can't modify listed electrical equipment in such a way.
Not a modification because the design safety of the fixture has not been defeated.
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Old 09-22-2009, 09:20 AM   #23
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Recessed/Can Lighting Heat Loss?


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Originally Posted by hvaclover View Post
Not a modification because the design safety of the fixture has not been defeated.
I'd challenge you to find that exception in the electrical code.

Article 110 of the NEC basically states that products are to be tested and listed for their intended use. Somehow attaching a computer fan to a can light is not a listed or tested installation and therefore should be disallowed by the provisions of 110.3(A) and 110.3(B). The computer fan certainly isn't intended by the manufacturer for use in a hardwired concealed application within a structure, and the modifications to the can light should be disallowed unless specifically permitted in the manufacturer's literature (see 110.3(B)).
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Old 09-22-2009, 03:37 PM   #24
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Recessed/Can Lighting Heat Loss?


Quote:
Originally Posted by thekctermite View Post
I'd challenge you to find that exception in the electrical code.

Article 110 of the NEC basically states that products are to be tested and listed for their intended use. Somehow attaching a computer fan to a can light is not a listed or tested installation and therefore should be disallowed by the provisions of 110.3(A) and 110.3(B). The computer fan certainly isn't intended by the manufacturer for use in a hardwired concealed application within a structure, and the modifications to the can light should be disallowed unless specifically permitted in the manufacturer's literature (see 110.3(B)).

But as long as what ever design specs that make the fixture suitable and safe for a specific application are not altered, by passed, or otherwise misapplied, the safety cert remains.

The same can be said for the computer fans as not being an alteration but
as a supplement as long as all the other fixture install requirement are met.

Your line of thinking reflects enforcement of the absolute minimum of the installation with out any consideration of increased safety measure that could be added in addition to the fixture safety cert.

A device such as a small fan does not ALTER the safety of the fixture as long as the fixture is other wise installed according to mafgs specs.

Some Coplamatic R502 comp valve head ran so hot that contractors were installing fans on them to keep them cool with out factory say so.
Mech insp knocked it down, said it was not designed with the fan so it could not stay.
We won on appeal because the fan did nothing to ALTER the inherent design of the equip; quite the contrary, we were commended for being conscientious enough to care about improving equipment longevity.

I have seen contractors successfully take issues like this court and win.

My local authority lost on flex gas lines because they are AGA certified , and the thru-the-wall (furnace cabinet in this case) rule was knocked down when it was shown a plastic plug or sleeve placed in the gas line entry port
prevented metal to metal wear thru.

Point being the code requirements on safety were shown shown to have been exceeded because the flex was AGA approved and the concern of the flex penetrating a wall were reduced to nil.

i think that the case of the lights could be argued in the same vein, i.e. the clearance at the rear or side of the recessed light could be increased (thus improving on the code requirement) and a small fan installed wire independently of the lights.
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Old 09-22-2009, 04:23 PM   #25
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Recessed/Can Lighting Heat Loss?


HVAClover I'd agree with you in full provided the little imaginary fan that you're proposing was intended and listed for use in a hardwired and concealed application in a dwelling. Maybe they make one but I doubt it. Use a computer fan in that application and any good attorney will shoot your case full of holes in about 15 seconds.
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Old 09-22-2009, 04:31 PM   #26
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Recessed/Can Lighting Heat Loss?


Quote:
Originally Posted by thekctermite View Post
HVAClover I'd agree with you in full provided the little imaginary fan that you're proposing was intended and listed for use in a hardwired and concealed application in a dwelling. Maybe they make one but I doubt it. Use a computer fan in that application and any good attorney will shoot your case full of holes in about 15 seconds.

I'd take that bet.
What does additional clearance in excess of what the code calls for become since it is no longer germane to the lighting fixture?
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Old 09-22-2009, 09:18 PM   #27
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Recessed/Can Lighting Heat Loss?


Scared 'im off????
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Old 09-22-2009, 11:06 PM   #28
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Recessed/Can Lighting Heat Loss?


Quote:
Originally Posted by hvaclover View Post
What does additional clearance in excess of what the code calls for become since it is no longer germane to the lighting fixture?
I don't understand this question.

Code doesn't require clearance between can lights and insulation, framing, plumbing, etc. The manufacturer's specs of the individual fixtures dictate that (NEC article 110).

Cite code sections. Pretty hard to prove someone wrong with opinions.

Otherwise lets not waste each others' time, as perhaps we're not going to agree.
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Old 09-22-2009, 11:25 PM   #29
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Recessed/Can Lighting Heat Loss?


Yeah, you're right. We probably won't agree if you've already made up your mind that's what you are going to do.

I was looking forward to an honest and sincere discussion on the topic at hand but it looks like you think something else is in the air.

All I will say is that you are wrong about fans operating in the same cavity and in proximity to a recessed light or similar fixture.

Insulation has no significance to the issue.

It's in our state code commentary with attribution to NEC.

Sorry you think it would be anything other than a good discussion.
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Old 09-23-2009, 08:50 AM   #30
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Recessed/Can Lighting Heat Loss?


I love your passive-aggressive approach as usual.

Show me a product listing, a code section, a scan of the code commentary page, a picture of a compliant installation....Something other than your opinion. You say I'm wrong. Prove it.

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