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-   -   R-22 drop in Fact or fiction (http://www.diychatroom.com/f17/r-22-drop-fact-fiction-23201/)

geo fan 07-05-2008 09:57 AM

R-22 drop in Fact or fiction
 
I have ben told by manufactures offering 10year warranttees on r22 equip that replacement compressors will be and are available in the form of direct drop in replacement . Compressors that run off of diferent refrigerents but use the same or compatable oil . I remember at one point I was taught that there is no such thing as a direct drop in. This is no big deal on a traditional system as I can make it the manufactures problem . but many geothermal manufactures are still useing r-22 this is a concern after the phase out for warrantte considering we install direct exchange . The have assured me and reassured me that there are drop ins and the dont require any more work then a normal compressor change, but even though I cant for the life of me remember the source that told me they dont exsist I remain sceptical. any unbiased knowlege on the topic would be greatly appreciated

statman 07-05-2008 01:10 PM

I usually install only R410 equipment now unless the customer or his budget insist on R22 for the exact same reason. Very iffy out there as to the reliability and potential availability of "drop in " refrigerants.I took a look on the web and did find this article which tends to back up their claim however:

Worried by the effects of Global Warming, legislative measures have made it mandatory for the air conditioning industry to reduce and preferably remove the ozone depleting refrigerants in their products. R22 has been observed as a potential harm to the ozone layer and therefore the manufacturers of air conditioners with these refrigerants have begun to look for alternatives.
These alternatives having very low global warming potentials include refrigerants like R134A, R407C, R410A and R417A. While choosing the right replacement for R22 refrigerant one has to carefully examine certain requirements. It is ideal to use a replacement that uses the same equipment and same type of oil, without engineering. The conversion from R22 to the new refrigerant should be fast and simple. The new refrigerant must have same energy efficiency if not more than that of R22. The most important of all factors is that the new refrigerant must have zero ozone depleting potential.
The easy choice of replacement is R417A which proves to be both time and money saving. R417A is non-ozone depleting long-term replacement for R22 which does not require modification or change of oil. It is non-flammable and can be used in compressors designed for R22. Another alternative R290 (pure propane) is a naturally occurring hydrocarbon with properties similar to the R22. R290 has no ozone depletion potential and very low global warming potential however, it is highly flammable. Ammonia too has been used effectively and successfully in many industries but is highly toxic and lot of care has to be taken before its application.

geo fan 07-05-2008 02:05 PM

r417
 
I beleive this is the drop in I was told about . And assured that compressors would be available my concern is cost after the phase out and availability of the gas and equipment. 410a is all we install on traditional systems . The geo thermal direct exchange manufacturer we use Advanced geothermal inc. does not manufacture 410a equip they claim there are problems with the poe oil's viscosity at low temps which is a problem when your condensing coil is 60 feet underground. I know other manufactures have 410a but while still being relitively new to the geothermal game this manufacture offered the best support on and off site so we went with them and I 'm not 100% if those other 410a geo systems are water source or not. Thank you and if you find out any more on this refrigerent its availabilty or the compressors designed for it I would greatly apreciat it

statman 07-06-2008 01:38 AM

I definitely understand your concern. You are gambling based upon the recommendations of a supplier and I wouldnt want to see anything go wrong in a geothermal system and not have the support and backup from anyone if something went wrong. If I was in your position, I would ensure that my supplier is fully aware of your concerns and is 100 percent committed to making the situation right in the event of a warranty issue. All us techs are kinda in the same boat, but a geothermal install aint your typical install. could bite ya in the butt.
Good luck....chances are that all will be alright and you wont hear from this customer after the brilliant install you are going to do for him. Keep my fingers crossed.

joe_2663 07-06-2008 04:02 AM

just getting into HVAC, but was mobile a/c certified...all this sounds like us auto guys in the late 80's...almost all the fears were just that fears it was easy change over..in hvac R-410's been around 10 years... tried and true...I know we all need to eat , but the writings on the wall since 1987..tell your customers we all need to move on it'll save them $ from day two and in the long run (all the high seer come from 410)...I can only guess the cost of R-22 recharge after component failure in three years...just have them sign a waiver if they insist on yesterdays refrigerant. ..r-22 units are for flipping old houses not building/living in a home at this date


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