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dengle 03-02-2012 09:30 AM

Quote for new furnace. Reasonable?
 
My heat exchanger is cracked and decided on a new furnace instead of replacing the faulty item. As I don't exactly buy a new furnace every day, I have no clue on what the average price is for a new one. The dealer I'm working with gave me several options.

I have two units, each 80k BTU XR80's which the dealer believes is oversized for a 3200 sq ft house. As the 2nd floor unit is still working and short cycles constantly, I tend to agree with him.

Anyway, on to the quotes. As the manufacturer will give a credit towards a new unit instead of replacing the exchanger, I decided to stick with Trane. I'm leaning towards a 95%+ efficiency unit. The dealer stated that this is the "worst case scenario" pricing and could go down. I guess that means he estimated high on the labor, assumed the need for extra vent piping, etc.
Based on some searches online, I think the prices are high since they already take into consideration the $360 credit, but am looking for second opinions.
Also, is the variable speed unit worth the extra money? I live in PA about 40 miles west of Philadelphia since I know area/region can be important. Any input is appreciated!

Proposal # 1 Trane Furnace to include XR-80 furnace Standard blower Reuse Air conditioner Like for Like

Heating BTU output high: 64,000 AFUE: 80 Fuel: Natural gas
Furnace model # TUD1B080A9481A
Thermostat: Reuse

Installed Price: $1,640.23 price is already less $360.00 heat exchanger credit

XR, XB 80 Furnace Warranty: One (1) year complete parts and labor on all installed materials by Meade Heating and Air conditioning, Inc. Base Trane warranty: Five (5) years on parts and twenty (20) years on the heat exchanger. If the unit is registered on line within 60 days of the install the Trane parts will become ten (10) years to the original owner. Residential use only. Extended warranties are available please inquire.



Proposal # 2 Trane Furnace to include XR-80 furnace Standard blower Reuse Air conditioner Exact with size 3-ton Blower

Heating BTU output high: 47,000 AFUE: 80 Fuel: Natural gas
Furnace model # TUD1B060A9361A
Thermostat: Reuse

Installed Price: $1,557.19 price is already less $360.00 heat exchanger credit

XR, XB 80 Furnace Warranty: One (1) year complete parts and labor on all installed materials by Meade Heating and Air conditioning, Inc. Base Trane warranty: Five (5) years on parts and twenty (20) years on the heat exchanger. If the unit is registered on line within 60 days of the install the Trane parts will become ten (10) years to the original owner. Residential use only. Extended warranties are available please inquire.



Proposal # 3 Trane Furnace to include XR-95 Direct vent single stage furnace Standard blower Reuse Air conditioner

Heating BTU output high: 57,000 AFUE: 95 Fuel: Natural gas
Furnace model # TUH1B060A9361A
Thermostat: Reuse

Installed Price: $2,796.69 is already less $360.00 heat exchanger credit

XV95, XC 95M, XT95, XR95, XB90 and XC80, XV80 Gas XV80 oil Furnace Warranty: One (1) year complete parts and labor on all installed materials by Meade Appliance Service, Inc. Standard Trane part warranty limited: Ten (10) years on parts and Lifetime on the primary and secondary heat exchangers to the original owner if the unit is registered on line within 60 days of the install otherwise the Trane base unit warranty will apply (residential use). Does not include maintenance items like nozzle and fuel related items on the oil furnace. Extended warranties are available please inquire



Proposal # 4 Trane Furnace to include XV-95 Direct vent two stage furnace variable speed blower Reuse Air conditioner

Heating BTU output high: 58,000 output low: 37,700 AFUE: 96.7 Fuel: Natural gas
Furnace model # TUH2B060A9V3V
Thermostat: Trane TCONT602 programmable Customer to run Thermostat wire
Installed Price: $3,793.24 is already less $360.00 heat exchanger credit

hvac5646 03-02-2012 09:43 AM

look good from here..but you have to consider that prices vary around the country. May be high to some and low to others.

Did you say it was gas or oil?

dengle 03-02-2012 10:07 AM

It's gas.

What are your thoughts on the variable speed 2-stage vs the 1 stage 95%+ units? is the 2-stage Variable speed worth the extra cash?

We also used to use the allergen filters in the furnace. He said that could have caused the cracking along with the short cycling as those filters are pretty restrictive. He said the variable speed unit will automatically ramp up it's speed to compensate for the restriction. Does anyone know if that is accurate?

hvac5646 03-02-2012 10:10 AM

I like trane equipment but i don't sell it, so i can only give you an un-qualified opinion.

wait a bit and the right guys will respond.

yuri 03-02-2012 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dengle (Post 868151)
It's gas.

What are your thoughts on the variable speed 2-stage vs the 1 stage 95%+ units? is the 2-stage Variable speed worth the extra cash?

We also used to use the allergen filters in the furnace. He said that could have caused the cracking along with the short cycling as those filters are pretty restrictive. He said the variable speed unit will automatically ramp up it's speed to compensate for the restriction. Does anyone know if that is accurate?

Totally accurate and highly recommended. You can run the fan continuosly and it uses 60-100 watts of power vs 500 with a regular fan. Plus it blows at a lower speed/CFM around 400-500 vs 1000 with a regular fan. It can handle the more dense filters easily and will speed up as they plug up. The regular fan just overheats itself and the furnace.

hvac5646 03-02-2012 03:38 PM

electronic air-cleaners are better.

Marty S. 03-02-2012 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hvac5646 (Post 868408)
electronic air-cleaners are better.

True if you're the 1% of people that clean them at least once a month. For the other 99% who clean once or twice a year they might as well run with no filter,same filthy coil and blower either way.

OP that looks like a very reasonable bid. My sister just paid 8K for a goodman system(furnace and air) which is way,way cheaper equipment to buy .

dengle 03-02-2012 07:54 PM

Thanks for all the input guys. I wound up choosing the 80% furnace as, after discussing with the boss, er... I mean wife, it wasn't worth the extra $$$ for the higher efficiency units as this is our right now house, not our right / forever house :-) and well just user the cheaper blue filters as well since the allergy sufferers in the house didn't notice a big difference anyway with the stronger filters.

yuri 03-02-2012 08:12 PM

use at least a merv 7 or merv 8 true blue filter from HDepot or your AC coil will get dirty. nothing less than a merv 7 is what I recommend.

Yoyizit 03-02-2012 08:25 PM

If I understand your post correctly, and according to the way Excel computes quartiles, half your prices are between
$1620 and $3046 so units that fall outside this range should have good reasons.

REP 03-03-2012 02:38 AM

I don't like anything about this situation and I'm not talking about the equipment.
I don't buy that the heat exchanger cracked because of a filter or because of faulty material or workmanship of the heat exchanger.
Im think your return is too small and possibly your supply.If I'm right you will be doing this all overagain before your "right house"
The people that quoted you pulled a size of equipment stright out of their butt.You cannot size equipment just by looking at the job.I don't care if you have been in the business for a hundred years.
They put no effort into the quote.They pulled the size out of thin air.
Before you have that unit put in DEMAND a manual "J" load calculation be done.
And to make sure you don't crack another heat exchanger DEMAND that a manual "D" be done.
Its your money ,,,why just give it away.Make them put a little honest effort into it.
The single most important thing to do in selecting equipment is to PROPERLY size it and then size the delivery system so you get all that conditiopned air you are paying for into the house and back to the furnace.
Then when the equipment is installed have them at least do a gas pressure check and a tempature rise check.
There is nothing mystical about sizuing a furnace or the ductwork,its plain engineering and the numbers don't lie.

dengle 03-03-2012 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by REP (Post 868914)
I don't like anything about this situation and I'm not talking about the equipment.
I don't buy that the heat exchanger cracked because of a filter or because of faulty material or workmanship of the heat exchanger.
Im think your return is too small and possibly your supply.If I'm right you will be doing this all overagain before your "right house"

I agree that I doubt the filter alone caused the issue. More likely the previous owners were filthy animals and they hardly ever changed the filter. When I moved in, the filter was the super-thin blue filter type and it was so choked with dirt you couldn't see through it anymore. Anyway, they didn't say outright that the filter was the cause, more that the filter can restrict too much airflow which can cause the heat exchanger to get too hot or hotter than typical, potentially. Also, both units have been shortcycling which I believe can contribute to extra stresses on the heat exchanger, no?

Quote:

Originally Posted by REP (Post 868914)
The people that quoted you pulled a size of equipment stright out of their butt.You cannot size equipment just by looking at the job.I don't care if you have been in the business for a hundred years.
They put no effort into the quote.They pulled the size out of thin air.
Before you have that unit put in DEMAND a manual "J" load calculation be done.

I've never heard of a manual J or D calc before. Thanks for the info! That being said, while he didn't come out and say he did a manual "J" calc, I'm pretty sure he did one as he measured every room and window in the house and asked me for the specs of the windows (E value, etc), of which I didn't know other than it's builder's grade and the cold (and heat in summer) leaks through noticeably.
Quote:

Originally Posted by REP (Post 868914)
And to make sure you don't crack another heat exchanger DEMAND that a manual "D" be done.
Its your money ,,,why just give it away.Make them put a little honest effort into it.
The single most important thing to do in selecting equipment is to PROPERLY size it and then size the delivery system so you get all that conditiopned air you are paying for into the house and back to the furnace.
Then when the equipment is installed have them at least do a gas pressure check and a tempature rise check.
There is nothing mystical about sizuing a furnace or the ductwork,its plain engineering and the numbers don't lie.

He did say they do a temperature rise check and one or two others that I can't recall once the system is installed.

Thanks again for the info. I'll be sure to ask them to confirm that a Manual J was done and to do a manual D as I don't recall him measuring the ducts/registers.

hvac5646 03-03-2012 10:19 AM

Rep's rant
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by REP (Post 868914)
I don't like anything about this situation and I'm not talking about the equipment.
I don't buy that the heat exchanger cracked because of a filter or because of faulty material or workmanship of the heat exchanger.
Im think your return is too small and possibly your supply.If I'm right you will be doing this all overagain before your "right house"
The people that quoted you pulled a size of equipment stright out of their butt.You cannot size equipment just by looking at the job.I don't care if you have been in the business for a hundred years.
They put no effort into the quote.They pulled the size out of thin air.
Before you have that unit put in DEMAND a manual "J" load calculation be done.
And to make sure you don't crack another heat exchanger DEMAND that a manual "D" be done.
Its your money ,,,why just give it away.Make them put a little honest effort into it.
The single most important thing to do in selecting equipment is to PROPERLY size it and then size the delivery system so you get all that conditiopned air you are paying for into the house and back to the furnace.
Then when the equipment is installed have them at least do a gas pressure check and a tempature rise check.
There is nothing mystical about sizuing a furnace or the ductwork,its plain engineering and the numbers don't lie.


If these guys were worth their salt they probably asked how long th OP was going to stay in the home. Since "not for long" is the answer, the sales guys would usually not do a load calc. As contractors with common sense, we all can appreciate why.

beenthere 03-03-2012 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hvac5646 (Post 869057)
If these guys were worth their salt they probably asked how long th OP was going to stay in the home. Since "not for long" is the answer, the sales guys would usually not do a load calc. As contractors with common sense, we all can appreciate why.

Probably more like the salesman in this case just doesn't do them.

plummen 03-04-2012 07:39 AM

In my experiance with older trane equipment installed from the 70s-early/mid 90s anyway Ive changed out more trane heat exchangers than Id ever want to sit down and try to count.
And they were always cracked in the same same place,installed by differant companys so Im gonna go out on a limb here and say not every tinner out there is installing the wrong size duct work.
Youll have to make your own decision about them :whistling2:
Thats all Ive got to say about the brand other than I started calling them TRANE WRECKS a long,long time ago! :laughing:


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