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langless28 11-12-2012 07:06 AM

question regarding current heating work
i just had a toe kick heater put in my kitchen (remodel) and it was put inline with the rest of my hot water baseboard heat (no monoflow valves) this goes against what i have read in the directions but i asked the plumber and he said they were not needed. should i be concerned? what are the pros and cons? i would like to know if i should demand it be modified while there is not cabinets/ tile.

the heating system is oil furnace with baseboard hot water (3/4" throughout) split zone (1 zone) there is currently around 15' of baseboard in the living room, then the toe kick -bathroom-bedrooms-return. the 1/2" in and out on the toekick were adapted to 3/4" and put inline with the system. system water temp is around 150F.

langless28 11-12-2012 01:44 PM

no one cares to chime in? or should this be in the plumbing section?

old_squid 11-12-2012 09:03 PM

You didn't post what brand or model of heater it was and the system piping arrangement with baseboard lengths loop length etc. would be what I'd take into account when piping one in. With that said I would never put one in series with any baseboard system. Why? The heater has 1/2" piping connections with flow rates as rated as low as 2 gallons per minute. Your baseboard (I'm assuming 3/4" finned type) is rated at 4 gallons per minute flow and were probably sized and installed accordingly.

Ask your plumber if he would think it was ok to plumb your water lines all in 3/4" and then in the middle of the house downsize it to 1/2" for say 10' and then back to 3/4". Not to mention the plumbing inspector would never pass it. :whistling2:

Just my opinion.

MarkusAIC 11-12-2012 09:43 PM

Whether or not the toe kick will get enough flow without monoflow tees depends on the pipe layout. Sometimes it works decent enough without monoflow tees, sometimes it doesn't work at all.
You should remember that water always takes the path of least resistance unless forced to do otherwise. There will be some resistance going to the toe kick naturally. Depending on the pipe layout there could be a too much for the water to want to go to the toe kick.
Hire a plumber who gives a damn.

beenthere 11-13-2012 04:29 AM

If its piped in series. The heat in the rest of the house after the toe kick will be diminished. may not notice it until it gets colder outside.

langless28 11-13-2012 05:47 AM

I apologize about lack of information. Lets see if I can do my best. It's single floor ranch roughly 1000 sq feet with the returns being 40' down the center of the house (split zone) it is 3/4 copper finned system and the toekick is a "quiet-one" 2000 by smiths environmental; model KS2006 (7000 btu). It is heating my modest 100sqft kitchen.

From my perspective (mechanical engineer) it makes sence about the flow restriction because of my fluids and heat transfer knowledge but I am trying to rule out the benefit of the doubt. Unfortunately he is a cousin to my fiancée so I don't want to insult him with saying "the Internet told me" but if I can back up the REASON why they NEED to be there, I would be happy. Your right about the colder rooms downline but we are in a funky 65f+ November week so we can't really test out the heating. To add another monkey wrench, this needs to be sorted out in the next few days because I am sheet rocking this weekend.

Thanks for the help.

beenthere 11-13-2012 11:18 AM

I would think just showing him the install instructions and pointing out that none of the drawings in the manual show it as being piped up in series should be a pretty good amount of ammo.

langless28 11-13-2012 11:21 AM

good point, but the directions do say (monoflow fitting may be needed). in what situation would they not be needed?

beenthere 11-13-2012 11:48 AM

Not needed on 2 pipe systems. usually needed on single pipe systems. Or at least use tee's that reduce one size on the straight thru to force water through the heater. EG: 3/4X3/4X1/2, with the toe kick connected to the 1/2".

langless28 11-13-2012 11:53 AM


Originally Posted by beenthere (Post 1051279)
Not needed on 2 pipe systems. usually needed on single pipe systems. Or at least use tee's that reduce one size on the straight thru to force water through the heater. EG: 3/4X3/4X1/2, with the toe kick connected to the 1/2".

forgive me but for a single pipe system, you said usually. what scenario are they not needed on the 1 pipe system? im sorry for prying but i am trying to give the guy the benefit of the doubt. he is my fiance's cousin and i am pretty sure doubting his knowledge in the trade that he has been doing for a while is going to piss him off...

beenthere 11-13-2012 12:00 PM

On a single pipe system that has a lot more baseboard then the house needs, and the toe kick is one of the first things on the pipe.

Ran into a set up like yours a few years back. Couldn't open the floor of the bedrooms to fix the piping. So i ended up going with a more powerful circulator to get enough heat through the toe kick and baseboard.

langless28 11-13-2012 12:06 PM

Gotcha, well it’s a split zone system and the side with the toekick leaves the furnace then has about 15’ of baseboard in the living room, then the toekick, then ~8’ of baseboard in the bathroom, then ~15-20’ in a bedroom, then it returns 40’ back to the furnace. My fiancée is actually bringing thermometers home (science teacher) and we will see how long it takes for the downstream baseboards to heat up their spaces to see if the toekick poses a problem being plumed in series like this. and the circulation pump is 1/25HP and my nominal pressure prior to installing the toekick was between 12-15 psi, now its around 16-18 psi

beenthere 11-13-2012 12:14 PM

You'll be needing tee's.

langless28 11-13-2012 12:16 PM

should i follow the directions and use two monoflo's or a regular tee and monoflo? i can probably search for the best method? also ball valve shutoffs for maintenance? now onto a question of ethics. i assume you are in the trade so how would you want to be talked to if someone didn't like the way you did something. i ALSO feel like i shouldn't pay extra if it gets fixed because it should have been done this way in the first place.

beenthere 11-13-2012 12:25 PM

I would prefer straight up.

Should have valves, in case you ever need to pull it for service.

1 monoflo should be enough. 2 is only really needed when you are tying to force hot water down. Like if you had the toe kick in a basement bathroom.

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