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Old 08-22-2010, 03:04 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by hvaclover View Post

i skipped over most of what Nap said because for the simple reason that when you buy the meter can box and disconnect they already have been certified for the use intended. And the disconnect has a sticker you put on the disconnect door indicating it is a service disconnect.



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if the disco is rated it will have a sticker and I am not arguing that point. There are discos that are not rated for service equipment and those are obviously not acceptable. It really is that simple.

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Old 08-22-2010, 03:15 PM   #32
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Itis a State of Michigan hook up and we no longer get the meter cans for free. We have to buy it and the control can.

No offense, but Using a European country is not a good comparison.

No two countries have the same load centers or transmission rates. Ever see a German load center? Sweet! The rest of Europe looks like 19th century technology by comparison.
I am famuair with State of Michigan Electrical Codes due I go up to UP part pretty often when I am in Wisconsin and I done the excat same way what Nap describing and have no issue with the codes.

Now for Germany side I have see it from time to time but you should see Sweden verison that one of the best one I have see it but just don't go there on Eastern European system that right on par with redneck Americian wiring goes.

As Far for France system it is not too far behind with NEC codes few are paralled with the codes.

and I have see the UK system as well few UK electricians are my freinds so we do swap codes and notes on that as well.

Majtory of main land European area the home we can get them in three phase supply without issue so it pretty common few have option have single phase { useally cost more on rates }

as far for KWH rate the Eurpoean side it much higher than what you pay in USA.

Oh the last thing I do have two home one in Wisconsin and second home in Paris France so i am famuair with both ways.

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Old 08-22-2010, 03:34 PM   #33
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I am famuair with State of Michigan Electrical Codes due I go up to UP part pretty often when I am in Wisconsin and I done the excat same way what Nap describing and have no issue with the codes.

Now for Germany side I have see it from time to time but you should see Sweden verison that one of the best one I have see it but just don't go there on Eastern European system that right on par with redneck Americian wiring goes.

As Far for France system it is not too far behind with NEC codes few are paralled with the codes.

and I have see the UK system as well few UK electricians are my freinds so we do swap codes and notes on that as well.

Majtory of main land European area the home we can get them in three phase supply without issue so it pretty common few have option have single phase { useally cost more on rates }

as far for KWH rate the Eurpoean side it much higher than what you pay in USA.

Oh the last thing I do have two home one in Wisconsin and second home in Paris France so i am famuair with both ways.

Merci.
Marc
The UP the Lower peninsula are drastically different.
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Old 08-22-2010, 04:21 PM   #34
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The UP the Lower peninsula are drastically different.
THE state code includes both peninsulas.
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Old 08-22-2010, 04:46 PM   #35
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THE state code includes both peninsulas.

In SE Michigan we are required to use a fused disconnect.

Requirements are not the same thru-out the state.

I can tell you for sure that around Alpena there is a very large scale whole- saler who sells hvac split system packages. If you buy a two ton or a five ton package you are gong to get a sixty amp non-fused disconnect.
They don't even stock fused disconnects (or so i was told).
When I first sat down with the rep to become a dealer he argued the point that the disconnect at the condenser did not have to be fused so they did not include them in the ac packages.

You go into a different municipality and the electrical requirements are different.

Point is there is uniformity in the MI codes because it is all a matter of local interpretation of the code.

There is a mod on this board who you can ask if you like. His day job is building and mechanical inspector.
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Old 08-23-2010, 02:20 AM   #36
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I know who the Mod is here and I belive once he read the whole thing he can able tell us who is more correct on the answer.


Oh By the way the UP and LP is the same rules there is no diffrence on electrical code at all.

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Old 08-23-2010, 03:37 AM   #37
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I know who the Mod is here and I belive once he read the whole thing he can able tell us who is more correct on the answer.


Oh By the way the UP and LP is the same rules there is no diffrence on electrical code at all.

Merci.
Marc
Dude, I get that the rules are written the same but the inspectors who interpret them cause changes in the implementation of the installation form one municipality to another.

Just like I posted early on, the supplier I was working with in Alpena issues a sixty amp non fused disconnect with every ac package despite tonnage.
In Alpena that is flying. Here in Macomb you need a fuses disconnect at both ends of the supply circuit.

BTW, does France ever intend to win a war? So far you guys are 0 for 3.
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Old 08-23-2010, 05:48 PM   #38
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I have used both, whatever is available and safe.

Wrong site Pro to Pro on HVAC PRO. Remember DIY.
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Old 08-24-2010, 07:36 PM   #39
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Good points Nap. I can't think of any A/C disconnects that are rated as suitable for use as service equipment.
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Old 08-24-2010, 07:48 PM   #40
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hhmm, looks like it requires some additional kit to make it suitable for service equipment. You would still need to bond the neutral and grounds and connect to the grounding electrode system and it would have to be mounted near the main service disconnect for it to be legal.


the system pictured previously would not be legal unless there was a main service disconnect right near the meters but merely not within the picture which is obviously not the case as the SE conductors leave the bottom of the meter base and go into the building. NEC requires all disconnects to shut off service to a building be grouped at one location.
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Old 08-24-2010, 07:54 PM   #41
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The kit was installed and it is bonded....
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Old 08-24-2010, 08:01 PM   #42
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NEC requires all disconnects to shut off service to a building be grouped at one location.

This is a resi install..

I have a call into the elec inspector for clarification as to what you are saying. We pull permits on every job. Allways get my green sticker
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Old 08-24-2010, 08:15 PM   #43
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This is a resi install..

I have a call into the elec inspector for clarification as to what you are saying. We pull permits on every job. Allways get my green sticker
for reference:
NEC 2008 230.40 exception #2

Quote:
This is a resi install..
doesn't make any difference. You can have up to 6 service discos served by 1 service entrance but per the section noted above, they must be grouped together.
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Old 08-25-2010, 03:26 AM   #44
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This is a resi install..

I have a call into the elec inspector for clarification as to what you are saying. We pull permits on every job. Allways get my green sticker
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Old 10-12-2010, 02:41 AM   #45
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... on a new or replacement AC install, do you guys fuse the circuit at the cond as well as the line supply connection, or do you fuse only one end of the circuit and use a non-fused disconnect?
I'm pretty sure HVAC guys are not allowed to do electrical work for job anyways since that puts them out of DIY.

DIY electrical is sometimes allowed, but sometimes has stipulation like premises not intended for renting etc. (so landlord can't do electrical work on his own apartments as they're rental properties).

When it comes to electrical, you're just as much of a pro as a DIYer, because you're not licensed in that field.

What you described often requires a permit, and around here, the contractor needs to have a contractor's license # in addition to electrician license #. Leave it to the pros.

homeowners shouldn't be evacuating and recharging refrigerant. HVAC techs shouldn't be doing line voltage disconnects, unless of course, they're fully licensed electricians.

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I've seen jobs where the supply voltage is fused at the service panel
and a fused disconnect mounted at the cond. But no fuses...the installer used half inch plumbing cipper to jump the fused contacts....~sigh~ ...I hate hack jobs
That's what happens when non-qualified personnel like HVAC installers do electrical. HVAC contractors are no more qualified than a Jose Garcia off Craigslist when it comes to electrical.

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