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Old 08-21-2010, 10:38 AM   #16
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PRO to PRO question.....


When I said a meter tap... I was refering to interruptible ac wireing...( should have worded it better )

There are 2 meters side by side. One for the house and the other for the ac.

We install the 2nd can and pull the wire.

The elec company comes out and connects the wire to the line side of the power feed. Yes 2 wires on the same lug...

Not sure if every state offers it... But here it is legal
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Old 08-21-2010, 10:55 AM   #17
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I know in State of Wisconsin we are not allowed to make two connections at the meter socket unless the meter maufacter have rating for multi cable.

Ditto with France.

Now I know someone mention two meter set up yeah I have see that quite few time.

The first one is normally is a house meter while second one typically used for water heater or electric heater or Central Air conding set up { that will have seperated rate plus what more most of them I know they are inturptable not like the main meter is }

And if you put a disconnect switch for A/C it have to be service rated with fuse or breaker in there this is one part that you really have to watch out.


I Know some of you HVAC guys have dual license { both HAVC plus Electrical } that fine but just keep up with the NEC codes they will change a bit with some items.

I am not a nitpick but please if you need more than just a simple electrical repair out of the HAVC scope it will be nice if you call in the Electrician to come in and they will be more than happy to help ya.

I have one HVAC company called me pretty often so it work out good for them and moi.

Merci.
Marc

P.S. Newtech I have see the PDF and that one of the most common meter set up I have in both Wisconsin and France but nice gotcha the second meter what we called TOU { time of use } they are normally rated either 30 or 60 amp max but the new meters are little diffrent they use the single meter but have a "trigger wire " to the contractor box to engerized the contractor as need.

Last edited by frenchelectrican; 08-21-2010 at 11:00 AM. Reason: add a note along the way
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Old 08-21-2010, 10:59 AM   #18
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Bet there's at least a couple AC's tied in BEFORE the meter in my neighborhood. Power lines go through the panel to the meter then back in to the panel. Old military base officers quarters so I doubt there were inspections.
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Old 08-21-2010, 11:06 AM   #19
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Bet there's at least a couple AC's tied in BEFORE the meter in my neighborhood. Power lines go through the panel to the meter then back in to the panel. Old military base officers quarters so I doubt there were inspections.
I can understand that situation but that is not a legit installment unless they have CT's { current transfomer } way before the panel and if the POCO ever find that they will cut off the service no question asked.

Merci.
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Old 08-21-2010, 11:41 AM   #20
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I doubt if these guys were paying for electricity:http://www.torontosun.com/news/canad.../15088411.html

Then again maybe they were "green" and had a windmill.



LOL
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Old 08-21-2010, 03:07 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by newtech View Post
When I said a meter tap... I was refering to interruptible ac wireing...( should have worded it better )

There are 2 meters side by side. One for the house and the other for the ac.
l
the rules I spoke of still apply to that installation as well. The disco's to turn off all of the power must be basically next to each other and the discos used still have to be service equipment rated.

Unless you have a need to be able to meter separately, that is an expensive way to install.

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The elec company comes out and connects the wire to the line side of the power feed. Yes 2 wires on the same lug...
still haven't seen a meter that is rated for dual conductors smaller than a 320 meter. I admit I haven't seen everything. As well, in my area, the POCO does not install service feeders. They do install service laterals (underground) though. They will only connect to the service feeder at the top of the riser.
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Old 08-22-2010, 03:14 AM   #22
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there is a serious (legal, as in NEC) restriction on tapping the meter. First, I know of no meters 200 amp or less that are designed to accept multiple conductors so you have that issue to deal with. Then, by NEC rules you must be able to turn off your entire electrical service from one point, even if you are allowed the 6 disco rule. So, if you tap the meter, you need to run it so the disco will be located next to the current main disco.

Then, since the AC disco is also a service disco, whatever you use as the disco must be rated to be used as "service equipment". Then, you need to comply with bonding requirements and grounding electrode connection requirements.

Of course, this is only in areas that follow the NEC though.


but as to the original question:

if this is a dedicated circuit, no fuses at the unit, just a disco.

I would point out that interpretable meters and electric water heater meters are situations where you can tap the meter as long as the conductors are the type and the AWG is sized to the load.

With a Full service panel it is allowable to got to the meter as long as a disconnect is provided at each end of the circuit.
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Old 08-22-2010, 09:16 AM   #23
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I would point out that interpretable meters and electric water heater meters are situations where you can tap the meter as long as the conductors are the type and the AWG is sized to the load.

With a Full service panel it is allowable to got to the meter as long as a disconnect is provided at each end of the circuit.
not real sure what you are saying here clover. Not that I'm arguing with you, just really not sure what you mean.

the rules I posted are invariable. You must use service equipment rated equipment. It is a matter of safety and must be followed. ALL service disconnects for a building must be positioned in the same location to allow all power to the building to be turned off from that one location.

The second meter disconnect also must be bonded just as a main panel is and connected to the grounding electrode system, just as the main panel is.

and again, I know of no meter sockets that are smaller than 320 amp rated that are listed to accept more than one conductor. They may be out there but I haven't seen any.

those are hard and fast rules that cannot be ignored. As long as the installation meets those requirements, I see no problem with a dual meter
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Old 08-22-2010, 11:47 AM   #24
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.

still haven't seen a meter that is rated for dual conductors smaller than a 320 meter. I admit I haven't seen everything. As well, in my area, the POCO does not install service feeders. They do install service laterals (underground) though. They will only connect to the service feeder at the top of the riser.
Here is a typical interpretable meter install. And the local elec co. comes out to put the wires to the line side of the main meter. We just have to have them terminated on the second meter, have the ac wired up, and have the wire pulled to the main meter

Have done this in many cities, the local elec co supply's everything needed for the install.( except for the disconnect )
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Old 08-22-2010, 12:22 PM   #25
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Here is a typical interpretable meter install. And the local elec co. comes out to put the wires to the line side of the main meter. We just have to have them terminated on the second meter, have the ac wired up, and have the wire pulled to the main meter

Have done this in many cities, the local elec co supply's everything needed for the install.
not arguing they do get installed. Just that there are requirements for them. As to the POCO supplying anything; wow, here they do not supply anything other than the meter itself. The POCO here would not attach the wires to the meter even. That is the building owners responsibility. They attach to the drop and that is it.

what I do find surprising is that is not a legal install (at least per NEC). ALL disco's to shut off a buildings power must be clustered together.

Do you guys even bond the neutral/ground and connect to the grounding electrode system?
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Old 08-22-2010, 12:35 PM   #26
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As to the POCO supplying anything; wow, here they do not supply anything other than the meter itself. The POCO here would not attach the wires to the meter even.

I don't know how far sw you are.

But this is in the Metro Detroit area.
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Old 08-22-2010, 12:56 PM   #27
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I don't know how far sw you are.

But this is in the Metro Detroit area.
about as far SW as you get. Niles. about 20-30 miles from the lake.
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Old 08-22-2010, 01:38 PM   #28
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Newtech.,

Thanks for showing the photo what you have there however in State of Wisconsin DO not allow that set up at all per state code unless you have factory dual meter sockets then it can be legit.

Second thing that A/C disconnect switch if that service rated that fine but if not service rated it is not legit set up.

Our electrical inspectors really hit this part super hard and they will not give you very much wiggy room at all.

And in France it the excat same result as well it have to be after the meter or TOU meter { dual rate meter inturptable }

Merci.
Marc
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Old 08-22-2010, 01:42 PM   #29
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Here is a typical interpretable meter install. And the local elec co. comes out to put the wires to the line side of the main meter. We just have to have them terminated on the second meter, have the ac wired up, and have the wire pulled to the main meter

Have done this in many cities, the local elec co supply's everything needed for the install.( except for the disconnect )
That is a typical Tri-County interruptable.

i skipped over most of what Nap said because for the simple reason that when you buy the meter can box and disconnect they already have been certified for the use intended. And the disconnect has a sticker you put on the disconnect door indicating it is a service disconnect.



I was asked to correct an attic installation that had violations up the giggy.

One that was so unreasonable was the red-tagging of a qualified disconnect because they did not use the manufacturer's "Service Disconnect sticker". Long story short the inspector would not allow the disconnect even though the model number stamped on the metal cross-referenced to suitable rating.
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Old 08-22-2010, 01:55 PM   #30
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Newtech.,

Thanks for showing the photo what you have there however in State of Wisconsin DO not allow that set up at all per state code unless you have factory dual meter sockets then it can be legit.

Second thing that A/C disconnect switch if that service rated that fine but if not service rated it is not legit set up.

Our electrical inspectors really hit this part super hard and they will not give you very much wiggy room at all.

And in France it the excat same result as well it have to be after the meter or TOU meter { dual rate meter inturptable }

Merci.
Marc
Itis a State of Michigan hook up and we no longer get the meter cans for free. We have to buy it and the control can.

No offense, but Using a European country is not a good comparison.

No two countries have the same load centers or transmission rates. Ever see a German load center? Sweet! The rest of Europe looks like 19th century technology by comparison.
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