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Old 04-15-2012, 09:07 PM   #16
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Please help with upgrade!


where i come from almost 100% of furnaces are way over sized...gas was cheap in the old days...
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Old 04-15-2012, 10:08 PM   #17
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where i come from almost 100% of furnaces are way over sized...gas was cheap in the old days...
That is a big problem with hers.... A house as big as hers with a 500 gallon lp tank equals a few high dollar fill ups a year. She is 70 and I feel total electric will not do her justice so I have pushed hybrid systems with the exception of the upstairs due to the fact that she burns a ton of wood and the heat rises.

The other big issue is her $500 dollar power bills in the summer, she tends not to use the systems like she should since it's just her. Slab house, high humidity and no air circulation = mold and mildew. This is why she become interested in the communicating systems as we were told they offer humidity control as well. I know she has 3 dehumidifiers that she is emptying several times a day at the moment.

She will state that her systems do the job when used but with all the advancement in the field I think along the lines of making it as efficient as possible and that it's the sizing (equipment and ductwork) plus a quality install that will max that out.

I really would hate for her to spend that much and end up with systems that short cycles not clearing out the humidity. I feel like it may feel cool but not remove one of her big problem (humidity). We are in Ga. so there is plenty of it in the summer with just enough time in winter to burn through the gas as well.

I will have them plans up tomorrow, seems my honey do list was larger than I thought today
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Old 04-15-2012, 10:30 PM   #18
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You mentioned mold and mildew...you mentioned a large utility bill. Seems like there are other problems that need attention as well as the HVAC. As others have said if the old system is too large (cooling)that could create some humidity problems. Have you looked at any other solutions for her comfort, such as possibly relocation?
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Old 04-16-2012, 02:29 AM   #19
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Ok guys, I really need some help here as I am trying to help my mother with her HVAC system! She wants to upgrade her 10 seer equipment and I have been trying to help her. After meeting with a number of HVAC companies I decided to use HVAC calc to run a load on her house. It's a really chopped up house on a slab built over 20 years ago. The equipment she wants installed in her home offers no 1/2 ton sizing for their 16 seer units, Goodman communicating 95 percent furnaces with heat pumps. I am really not sure what to recommend to her even with the load calculations. I feel as if her ductwork is not up to par and I have hit a wall as to where to go from here. I do know after hearing the companies call a return "a fresh air vent", "we will make it right if you have airflow issues", "that 1/4 line set will be fine", and the best one "go with a 3 ton heat pump and I'll have them size the coil down" that all 3 struck out. All 3 companies sized her house to her current units without question, a 2, 2 1/2, and a 3 ton. Her house is a 2 story slab divided between the current 2 and 2 1/2 ton on the first floor and 3 upstairs. Is their anyone willing to recommend what direction for me to go from here? I can provide plenty of details of the house and calculations..... Please help as I have told her not to half ass it by thinking high efficient units will provide her with what she is looking for without sizing everything correctly! Thanks to anyone willing to help point me in the right direction....
Im wondering about the 1/4" liquid line being reusable myself
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Old 04-16-2012, 04:04 AM   #20
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How can you assume it's not? Proper temperature and humidity. What's left?
By the 1,000s of systems that are in that people think are working right. that aren't. How can you assume its properly sized and working right.
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Old 04-16-2012, 11:29 AM   #21
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where i come from, it's cornbread and chicken
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV292aZuYEo

I couldn't resist.
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Old 04-18-2012, 01:07 PM   #22
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You mentioned mold and mildew...you mentioned a large utility bill. Seems like there are other problems that need attention as well as the HVAC. As others have said if the old system is too large (cooling)that could create some humidity problems. Have you looked at any other solutions for her comfort, such as possibly relocation?
There are other problems that I am aware of and plan on correcting. Relocation to a smaller residence would be great but have you noticed the real estate values these days? Not the greatest ideal to sell around here unless you plan on taking a big hit!
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Old 04-18-2012, 02:07 PM   #23
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Ok guys, I finished up a first and second floor set of plans last night for those of you who believe in correctly sizing equipment. I also went back over and double checked the load calculations which changed a small amount using the plans.

Any suggestions on the sizing from the pros would be terrific!
Attached Files
File Type: pdf House Plans First Floor Compressed.pdf (52.6 KB, 44 views)
File Type: pdf House Plans Second Floor Compressed.pdf (44.8 KB, 32 views)
File Type: pdf Load Calculations.pdf (22.8 KB, 34 views)
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Old 04-18-2012, 02:09 PM   #24
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What did your load calc say you nee in sizes.
Are any rooms not heat or cooled evenly with the rest of the area in that zone.
Can you do a static pressure check on the duct systems yourself(its hard to find a company that will do it).
I am sure I can do the static pressure check if I need to, I just have not researched it yet. How does it help with the duct system and should it be done with the existing units first?
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Old 04-18-2012, 04:13 PM   #25
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A static pressure check, will tell you if your current units are moving enough air for their size. if the pressure is too high, then they aren't moving the air they should, and larger units won't either.
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Old 04-18-2012, 04:31 PM   #26
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A 3 ton will meet your second floor needs. Now that I see the layout, a 2.5 ton for the second floor would have a problem on the sensible load side, along with the heat that will rise from your first floor on your hottest days.

Your first floor units could be reduced to a 2 and a 1.5 ton. The cool air of the second floor will drop to the first and and and help keep it cool.
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Old 04-20-2012, 09:39 AM   #27
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Thanks Beenthere..... Wow, I am learning way to much here. I hope this is my final question. I have here 2 different equipment estimates, both with different equipment options.
The first:
1.5 ton hybrid 14 Seer SSZ140181 Heat Pump, CAPF3131B6 Coil, GMVC950453BX 46,000 BTU Gas Furnace
2 ton hybrid SSZ140241 Heat Pump, CAPF3636B6 Coil, G-GMVC950453BX Gas Furnace
3 ton Heat Pump SSZ140361A, Air HandlerAVPTC313714 (Due to power company rebate and the fact she uses the fireplace a lot a total electric for the upstairs)
The second:
2-2 ton hybrid DSZC160241 16 Seer Heat Pump, GMVC950453BX Gas Furnace 46,000 BTU, CAPF1824B6 Coil
3 ton SSZ160361 16 Seer Heat Pump, AVPTC4260146 Air Handler with option for a AVPTC426014
The second would also include 2 CTK02AA ComfortNet Communicating Thermostats for the 2 ton hybrids

I really think I like the first package which sounds a lot like what you were saying Beenthere.
My 2 big concerns are, is it worth the additional money for the second package and why it include a smaller coil at a higher efficiency level than the first. I know the furnaces are the same just matched with different coil sizes and heat pumps.
So, in the opinion of the pros, which would be to her best benefit and why would the coils be sized so much different?
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Old 04-20-2012, 04:09 PM   #28
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The smallest evap coil I saw that Goodman list with the DSZC160241 is a 3036.

Being that they are 2 stage, you could use then and have good humidity control. Weather or not the duct system is ok for them on high stage, I can't say. On high stage the VS blower will attempt to move set air flow, and if the duct work is under sized, it could have some noise. Not uncommon to up size a heat pump 1/2 ton. But on dual fuels, it often isn't needed, since both the heat pump and furnace don't run at the same time in heat mode. Unless you have a very high gas rate, you don't need 2 stage heat pump, since you'll have VS blowers in the furnaces. And they will help reduce humidity in the summer.

The first option is a good set up.

The second option can provide better comfort in the summer using the Goodman communicating thermostats to slow the blower in cooling mode to reduce humidity. How much lower then the single stage 14 SEER is not something that can be predicted though. And it may not be enough to make it worthwhile going 2 stage.


I have never had a customer regret going to a 2 stage unit when they also got a VS blower.
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Old 04-21-2012, 02:01 AM   #29
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Ok guys, I finished up a first and second floor set of plans last night for those of you who believe in correctly sizing equipment. I also went back over and double checked the load calculations which changed a small amount using the plans.

Any suggestions on the sizing from the pros would be terrific!
I read through this whole thing but it's late so maybe I'm not comprehending it all. Why do you think you need to resize?

What was the attic insulation- Like an R30? Can you add some more up there? Do you have an attic fan to get the heat out of there? Doing a few little things like that will make the upstairs much cooler, and might be necessary if you're trying to get a smaller unit.

But I'm not sure what the problem with sizing was. How many square feet is the house - approx sq ft, just to get an idea of how big of a place we're talking about? Did the old units run too much and not make thermostat? Did the AC cycle off too quickly, leaving the humidity behind? Any problems with the heat or just AC? Did either break down frequently or run well for years? DO you think you need bigger or smaller, and why?
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Old 04-21-2012, 05:43 AM   #30
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Trust me, I have told her! Being a ex electrician and builder of the last 20 years I have a pretty good ideal of the situation. I have even told her that if we have to rip down the ceiling through the center of her house to add/replace ductwork then that's what has to be done.... (Stick framed with 9' walls, ceiling is dropped to 8' through the center of her house). I have been thinking about scaling off the schetched up plans I made of her house and sending them off to a engineering company to do all the calculations. HVAC calculations are right on my behalf. Problem is, I really just do not know how to size it correctly from them, then there's the ductwork design (what it is and what it should be). My old HVAC company is no longer in business and from what I have seen so far from the ones that looked at it, lol...
Did you get booted out of the Union?
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