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Old 11-02-2008, 12:47 PM   #16
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Payback going from 80% Furnace to 90%+


Keep in mind.
That even if it has a long payback period/time.
You eventually get your money back. And save a few dollars from there on.

Gas isn't going to get cheaper, after they have cars running on CNG.

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Old 11-02-2008, 04:17 PM   #17
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Payback going from 80% Furnace to 90%+


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Originally Posted by Marvin Gardens View Post
Yea well, I trusted politicians once. Things change.
A politician says, "I stand for God, Country, Apple Pie and Motherhood."
A headline says, "Four-year-old kills rattlesnake at picnic."

What's the difference?

There is way more information in the second sentence because it is unexpected. Politicians are always talking nonsense like that so there is zero info in the first sentence.

While I have y'alls attention, anyone have one or two links to low efficiency and high efficiency gas furnaces?
I want to find out if they will tell me the Mean Time Between Failures. For sure somebody designing these furnaces knows what it is. Maybe Consumer Reports knows.
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Old 11-02-2008, 04:40 PM   #18
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Payback going from 80% Furnace to 90%+


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While I have y'alls attention, anyone have one or two links to low efficiency and high efficiency gas furnaces?
I want to find out if they will tell me the Mean Time Between Failures. For sure somebody designing these furnaces knows what it is. Maybe Consumer Reports knows.
MTBF is on the components. Not the whole furnace. Like the main fan motor, the starter solenoid, and other stuff. I have never seen MTBF for the whole furnace.

Find some 95's you like and give them a call. Most will talk to you except for Allied Air (Armstrong) who wants nothing to do with you, me or anyone else.

The things that could go wrong that the 80's don't have is the condensate system. Other than that they are very similar. Both have a board, gas controller, sensors, the fan and a few other things. It's a no brainer to fix anything that goes wrong since there is a flashing light that gives a code as to what the problem is.
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Old 11-02-2008, 10:06 PM   #19
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Payback going from 80% Furnace to 90%+


Consumer Reports doesn't really know squat.
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Old 11-03-2008, 08:29 AM   #20
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Payback going from 80% Furnace to 90%+


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Originally Posted by Marvin Gardens View Post
MTBF is on the components. Not the whole furnace. Like the main fan motor, the starter solenoid, and other stuff. I have never seen MTBF for the whole furnace.

Find some 95's you like and give them a call. Most will talk to you except for Allied Air (Armstrong) who wants nothing to do with you, me or anyone else.

The things that could go wrong that the 80's don't have is the condensate system. Other than that they are very similar. Both have a board, gas controller, sensors, the fan and a few other things. It's a no brainer to fix anything that goes wrong since there is a flashing light that gives a code as to what the problem is.

Hell they talk to ME all the time!
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Old 11-03-2008, 09:09 AM   #21
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Payback going from 80% Furnace to 90%+


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Hell they talk to ME all the time!
That's cause they are afraid....
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Old 11-26-2008, 06:27 PM   #22
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Payback going from 80% Furnace to 90%+


replaced a regular furnace with a high efficiency 20 years ago. If I had known what was to come, I would have stayed with a standard furnace. I had a high efficiency installed with the closed combustion air system (pvc in for air, pvc out for exhaust). That winter when I would come into the house, I could just feel the humidity in the air, we used bath exhaust fans, and range hood fans also. Then, one day while I was outside, on the north side of the house, I was seeing yellowish water streaks, coming from the siding laps running down the wall. I knew I had a serious problem. AND I had not had a humidifier on since putting in this high efficiency. ALSO, this house was a standard built, nothing "tight" about it (built late 70's). Never had this problem before. At that point I knew this closed combustion system was not pulling any new air into the house, had continual stagnent humid air. I knew of air exchangers, and talked to contractors on the issue, they agreed an exchanger should cure it. The BAD thing about it, they are only about 80% efficient. So, in the long run, I paid more for high efficiency, and then had to pay another $1500 or so to reduce that efficiency back to 80% or less, just to keep the excessively high humidity out of the house. In the long run, I would have been better off with a standard furnace.
And even with the new "tight" houses, they are still required to have the fresh air inlet duct. So I would find it hard to believe there is any advantage in a new home using high efficiency furnace/air-to-air exchanger other than to pay a lot more for your home, or to even retro-fit your home.
Try to be "green" is not always what it cracked-up to be. Or to save some green.
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Old 11-26-2008, 06:41 PM   #23
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Payback going from 80% Furnace to 90%+


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replaced a regular furnace with a high efficiency 20 years ago. If I had known what was to come, I would have stayed with a standard furnace. I had a high efficiency installed with the closed combustion air system (pvc in for air, pvc out for exhaust). That winter when I would come into the house, I could just feel the humidity in the air, we used bath exhaust fans, and range hood fans also. Then, one day while I was outside, on the north side of the house, I was seeing yellowish water streaks, coming from the siding laps running down the wall. I knew I had a serious problem. AND I had not had a humidifier on since putting in this high efficiency. ALSO, this house was a standard built, nothing "tight" about it (built late 70's). Never had this problem before. At that point I knew this closed combustion system was not pulling any new air into the house, had continual stagnent humid air. I knew of air exchangers, and talked to contractors on the issue, they agreed an exchanger should cure it. The BAD thing about it, they are only about 80% efficient. So, in the long run, I paid more for high efficiency, and then had to pay another $1500 or so to reduce that efficiency back to 80% or less, just to keep the excessively high humidity out of the house. In the long run, I would have been better off with a standard furnace.
And even with the new "tight" houses, they are still required to have the fresh air inlet duct. So I would find it hard to believe there is any advantage in a new home using high efficiency furnace/air-to-air exchanger other than to pay a lot more for your home, or to even retro-fit your home.
Try to be "green" is not always what it cracked-up to be. Or to save some green.
Nothing Green about it. it's common sense -dollars and cents.

There was nothing wrong with your home a good tech could not fix.
When you eliminate a major atmospheric gas burner like a furnace your air changes are going to reduce, that is only natural since you don't have a furnace pulling in 10 cu ft of air for every cu ft of gas,

You ever consider just eliminating the combustion air PVC pipe? Or how about a dehumidifier? A fresh air in take would have fixed the problem too.
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Old 11-26-2008, 07:20 PM   #24
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Payback going from 80% Furnace to 90%+


Switching to inside combustion air.
Or just installing a fresh air intake.
Either one would have fixed that problem.

When HE furnaces are installed. They are not suppose to be installed on the windward side. Some times it is unavoidable.
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Old 11-27-2008, 09:59 AM   #25
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Payback going from 80% Furnace to 90%+


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Nothing Green about it. it's common sense -dollars and cents.

There was nothing wrong with your home a good tech could not fix.
When you eliminate a major atmospheric gas burner like a furnace your air changes are going to reduce, that is only natural since you don't have a furnace pulling in 10 cu ft of air for every cu ft of gas,

You ever consider just eliminating the combustion air PVC pipe? Or how about a dehumidifier? A fresh air in take would have fixed the problem too.
A lot what is done now nowdays is in the name of "saving the earth". But if it was done to save some "green", I believe that is a waste.
Yes, I did get a "good tech" to fix it, but I diagnosed the issue myself and a "good tech" wants a lot of "green"......and I understand the mechanics of the problem.....eliminate the combustion pvc? I believe that would possibly violate all building codes out there plus possibly create a health hazard, would the manufacturer approve?.......put in a dehumidifier? and keep all the stagnant air in the house, just drier, plus the cost of running that dehumifier constantly......and like I said, I replaced a conventional furnace, so I HAD a fresh air intake in the house.
To me, the issue is, there was/is nothing out there informing buyers of high efficiency furnaces of additions problems/costs involved. If you have to get the air to air exchanger to resolve the issue of high humidity/stagnent air in the house, all gains are lost.All the extra cost of the high eff plus the cost of the air exchr will NEVER be gained back, keeping in mind that the efficiency of the air exchng unit just brought you back to the efficiency of a conventional furnace, or LOWER.
HVAC people may love the added profits of selling/installing the higher priced unit, and then profiting again when the homeowner NEEDS to buy the air exchanger.
All I'm saying is the buyer needs to beware, and the industry NEEDS to make the buyer aware. I wasn't. I had to learn the hard way. I would have stayed with a conventional furnace.
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Old 11-27-2008, 11:21 AM   #26
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Payback going from 80% Furnace to 90%+


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A lot what is done now nowdays is in the name of "saving the earth". But if it was done to save some "green", I believe that is a waste.
Yes, I did get a "good tech" to fix it, but I diagnosed the issue myself and a "good tech" wants a lot of "green"......and I understand the mechanics of the problem.....eliminate the combustion pvc? I believe that would possibly violate all building codes out there plus possibly create a health hazard, would the manufacturer approve?.......put in a dehumidifier? and keep all the stagnant air in the house, just drier, plus the cost of running that dehumifier constantly......and like I said, I replaced a conventional furnace, so I HAD a fresh air intake in the house.
To me, the issue is, there was/is nothing out there informing buyers of high efficiency furnaces of additions problems/costs involved. If you have to get the air to air exchanger to resolve the issue of high humidity/stagnent air in the house, all gains are lost.All the extra cost of the high eff plus the cost of the air exchr will NEVER be gained back, keeping in mind that the efficiency of the air exchng unit just brought you back to the efficiency of a conventional furnace, or LOWER.
HVAC people may love the added profits of selling/installing the higher priced unit, and then profiting again when the homeowner NEEDS to buy the air exchanger.
All I'm saying is the buyer needs to beware, and the industry NEEDS to make the buyer aware. I wasn't. I had to learn the hard way. I would have stayed with a conventional furnace.
So you have a 90% furnace with combustion air and exhaust. The house is in a state of high humidity.

HOW high is the RH?

And if you got "A GOOD TECH TO FIX IT", what was done to correct it and why then are you complaining now.?

Most if not all 90% furnaces may be operated as one pipe system or two pipe systems. If i understand you your furnace is 20 years old? Back then I don't believe there was one mfg whose 90%er could not be used as a one pipe system.

If a good tech fixed it and you think he was expensive...you ought to try a bad tech and see how much they cost you to correct the bigger problem. he creates.

You are accusing the HVAC industry of ripping you off and pushing products that benefit the "GREEN POLITICAL AGENDA".

Brother pull your head out of your back pocket. You came here complaining about a twenty year old humidity problem that you don't make clear has been resolved or not and then reject the possible remedies. That is TROLLING in my book. Then you accuse the industry of conspiracy to promote GREEN to line our pockets.

There are no tree huggers in our business, only mfgs and contractors that recognize that gas and electrical rates are sky rocketing and the best remedy is an appliance that uses less of both. If you think that it is profiteering to cut an elederly persons gas bill by 30 or 40% at a fair price for a 95% two stage furnace varible speed blower, then call me Black Beard the Pirate.

Now here's another bit of info you dropped the ball on:They acually did do good insulation jobs on 1970's homes. But if you do, for the sake of argument, have a poorly insulated home as you claim then you are just tossing around a lot of BS, unless of course you reinsulated the home and didn;t mention it.
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Old 11-27-2008, 02:26 PM   #27
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Payback going from 80% Furnace to 90%+


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So you have a 90% furnace with combustion air and exhaust. The house is in a state of high humidity.

HOW high is the RH?

And if you got "A GOOD TECH TO FIX IT", what was done to correct it and why then are you complaining now.?

Most if not all 90% furnaces may be operated as one pipe system or two pipe systems. If i understand you your furnace is 20 years old? Back then I don't believe there was one mfg whose 90%er could not be used as a one pipe system.

If a good tech fixed it and you think he was expensive...you ought to try a bad tech and see how much they cost you to correct the bigger problem. he creates.

You are accusing the HVAC industry of ripping you off and pushing products that benefit the "GREEN POLITICAL AGENDA".

Brother pull your head out of your back pocket. You came here complaining about a twenty year old humidity problem that you don't make clear has been resolved or not and then reject the possible remedies. That is TROLLING in my book. Then you accuse the industry of conspiracy to promote GREEN to line our pockets.

There are no tree huggers in our business, only mfgs and contractors that recognize that gas and electrical rates are sky rocketing and the best remedy is an appliance that uses less of both. If you think that it is profiteering to cut an elederly persons gas bill by 30 or 40% at a fair price for a 95% two stage furnace varible speed blower, then call me Black Beard the Pirate.

Now here's another bit of info you dropped the ball on:They acually did do good insulation jobs on 1970's homes. But if you do, for the sake of argument, have a poorly insulated home as you claim then you are just tossing around a lot of BS, unless of course you reinsulated the home and didn;t mention it.
Let's just drop the "tree-huggeing" issue - it's irrelevant at this point.....
Apparently you're not reading my complete posts(or wanting future potential buyers of high efficiency furnaces to know the truth).
My RH is fine now - and have never said the insulation was an issue, and it isn't - problem was the first winter after having the furnace installed - I had to dish out another ton of "green" to rectify ("out of my back pocket")a problem caused by buying a product that should have SAVED me money.
Do you think a "good tech" would have come out out the goodness of their heart and messed with the PVC, something we don't know would even have been legal on a closed combustion system, and if the "industry" is so honest, why wasn't I given that option back then? Or didn't/doesn't the industry still have a clue - or does it work out better to keep this from the consumer?
I don't know what your "trolling" issue is, I just want potential buyers to be aware - If you don't like what I am saying, then you are trying to pull the wool over these people's eyes.
Figure this math for me - I bought a 90% efficient at a higher price than a standard - had humidity problems (which has been resolved for years - not ongoing) - had to spent another $1500 for an air exchanger. So what extra do I have invested at this point? And you say to save 30-40% - do the math - the efficiency of the air exchanger is 80% - what overall efficiency do I have now? And what percentage am I saving on my heat bill? Plug it all in before you give your "out of your back pocket" answer.
Bottom line, this should ALL have been in the open when I was shopping for and evaluating furnaces, not after the install, then looking for a "good tech" to resolve the problems. Just keep the buyer FULLY informed.
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Old 11-27-2008, 04:18 PM   #28
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Let's just drop the "tree-huggeing" issue - it's irrelevant at this point.....
Apparently you're not reading my complete posts(or wanting future potential buyers of high efficiency furnaces to know the truth).
My RH is fine now - and have never said the insulation was an issue, and it isn't - problem was the first winter after having the furnace installed - I had to dish out another ton of "green" to rectify ("out of my back pocket")a problem caused by buying a product that should have SAVED me money.
Do you think a "good tech" would have come out out the goodness of their heart and messed with the PVC, something we don't know would even have been legal on a closed combustion system, and if the "industry" is so honest, why wasn't I given that option back then? Or didn't/doesn't the industry still have a clue - or does it work out better to keep this from the consumer?
I don't know what your "trolling" issue is, I just want potential buyers to be aware - If you don't like what I am saying, then you are trying to pull the wool over these people's eyes.
Figure this math for me - I bought a 90% efficient at a higher price than a standard - had humidity problems (which has been resolved for years - not ongoing) - had to spent another $1500 for an air exchanger. So what extra do I have invested at this point? And you say to save 30-40% - do the math - the efficiency of the air exchanger is 80% - what overall efficiency do I have now? And what percentage am I saving on my heat bill? Plug it all in before you give your "out of your back pocket" answer.
Bottom line, this should ALL have been in the open when I was shopping for and evaluating furnaces, not after the install, then looking for a "good tech" to resolve the problems. Just keep the buyer FULLY informed.
You sir have the worse case of buyers remorse I have ever seen.
You can be angry at the HVAC industry all you want but DO NOT treat me as if i was the one who installed your furnace and caused your problems.

I have tried to be civil but it just looks like you want a whipping boy to vent your anger on.

So I will not even try to continue this conversation,

I have sent a report to the mods. This site is not for you or anyone anyone else to knock a trade or vent their pet peeve.

This site is to help people, and all the Pros here do it for free and on our own time.

You want to crab about the industry then find some consumer advocacy site or may be Ralph Nader has a chat site you could voice your opinion on.
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Old 11-28-2008, 02:12 AM   #29
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Payback going from 80% Furnace to 90%+


Code does not require 90% furnaces to use(have a direct burner conection) outside combustion air.
There is, oe was(haven't installed that brand for some years now), atleast one brand that made 90% units that couldn't use outside combustion air.

You had a bad experience.
Most customers that notice high humidity in the winter after having a 90% installed.
End up with the intake pipe being disconnected on the first service call for the high humidity.
Why your tech did not know what to do when you called about the high humidity, I can't say.
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Old 11-28-2008, 04:21 AM   #30
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You sir have the worse case of buyers remorse I have ever seen.
You can be angry at the HVAC industry all you want but DO NOT treat me as if i was the one who installed your furnace and caused your problems.

I have tried to be civil but it just looks like you want a whipping boy to vent your anger on.

So I will not even try to continue this conversation,

I have sent a report to the mods. This site is not for you or anyone anyone else to knock a trade or vent their pet peeve.

This site is to help people, and all the Pros here do it for free and on our own time.

You want to crab about the industry then find some consumer advocacy site or may be Ralph Nader has a chat site you could voice your opinion on.
Yes, I have buyer's remorse. Yes, I do blame an industry that, it seems to me, wants to keep this dirty little secret under the covers. Instead of reporting me to the mods, the HVAC industry could work harder to make this a known condition to buyers before the sale, and possible remedies.

And YES, this site is to HELP people, that is what I was trying to do, I was not the one that made the angry statement "Brother, pull your head out of your back pocket....", and now I am being reported?

And if "knocking a trade" is what I am doing to try to help a poster with a question, I guess that is just a matter of opinion. The HVAC industry may see it that way, I believe the consumer may see it the other way.

Mods, the original poster was asking a question on the pros and cons of high efficiency. Essencially, all I saw in response from the HVAC people were "Yea, Yea, Yea,Yea........" to the high efficiency models, I was seeing NO cons( other that maybe higher cost, but "you get that back"). The buyer NEEDS to be well informed, if that makes the HVAC people angry, so be it. I am not angry, I am just trying to help people make an informed decision. I asked very pointed questions about my derivied efficiency percentage after everything was done, and got an angry response. I am not here to pick fights, if someone posts a question, an I have something to contribute, and even if the HVAC people don't like it, I will try to help that that poster make an intelligent decision. And a FULLY INFORMED decision.

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