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Old 10-29-2008, 12:49 PM   #1
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Payback going from 80% Furnace to 90%+


This might be a hard question because of the variables involved ...

If you have a customer asking you "I was thinking of upgrading my furnace to one of the 90%+ units, how long would it take me to get my money back?", what would you tell them?

Edit:

I currently have a natural gas furnace installed in '99.

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Old 10-29-2008, 02:08 PM   #2
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Payback going from 80% Furnace to 90%+


You are correct, there are a lot of variables.

But to get right down the the nitty gritty and ignore all other factors there would be a differential of 15% from an 80% to a 95% furnace.

Roughly, and I mean roughly, you would see a 15% difference in your bill.

The big issue is that you would be paying for a 95% furnace in todays dollars and would be paying the bills in tomorrows dollars. With 3% inflation and 10 years down the road a $3500 install today would be equivalent to about a $4500 install.

Then there is the cost of NG which will go up. That is a guarantee. If NG ever becomes a common transportable fuel for cars and trucks, and I am betting it will, then you will see the price climb.

So a 15% savings on a $100 gas bill would be $15 a month ($180 per year). But in 10 years when the bill is $250 adjusted for inflation and price increases then the savings would be $37 a month ($450 a year rounded).

Then you have to consider the increase in the value of your home. In 5 years I am sure there will be a mandate that all new homes will have a 95% furnace. Homes without it will get less money. Homes with it will get more.

As with anything the price will drop as the item becomes more popular and easier to make. All the R and D has been written off and it is now a common item. LCD's are a real good example. Look at how much they have come down in price. You can't even buy a CRT anymore. The LCD is the standard.

With the more savy customers I tell them all this stuff if they ask. With the less savy I tell them they will save about 15% and will be saving the planet (if they believe that crap, and that's all I have to say abuot that).

The over all difference in a 95% versus an 80% is ROUGHLY $2000. With an average heating bill of $150 for 6 months this is a savings of $23 per month or about $140 per year. With inflation and price increases you can see payoff in about 7-10 years.

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Old 10-30-2008, 10:54 AM   #3
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Payback going from 80% Furnace to 90%+


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Originally Posted by Marvin Gardens View Post
...
With inflation and price increases you can see payoff in about 7-10 years.
Excellent answer.



Thanks ...
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Old 10-31-2008, 10:41 AM   #4
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Payback going from 80% Furnace to 90%+


Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin Gardens View Post
You are correct, there are a lot of variables.

But to get right down the the nitty gritty and ignore all other factors there would be a differential of 15% from an 80% to a 95% furnace.

Roughly, and I mean roughly, you would see a 15% difference in your bill.

The big issue is that you would be paying for a 95% furnace in todays dollars and would be paying the bills in tomorrows dollars. With 3% inflation and 10 years down the road a $3500 install today would be equivalent to about a $4500 install.

Then there is the cost of NG which will go up. That is a guarantee. If NG ever becomes a common transportable fuel for cars and trucks, and I am betting it will, then you will see the price climb.

So a 15% savings on a $100 gas bill would be $15 a month ($180 per year). But in 10 years when the bill is $250 adjusted for inflation and price increases then the savings would be $37 a month ($450 a year rounded).

Then you have to consider the increase in the value of your home. In 5 years I am sure there will be a mandate that all new homes will have a 95% furnace. Homes without it will get less money. Homes with it will get more.

As with anything the price will drop as the item becomes more popular and easier to make. All the R and D has been written off and it is now a common item. LCD's are a real good example. Look at how much they have come down in price. You can't even buy a CRT anymore. The LCD is the standard.

With the more savy customers I tell them all this stuff if they ask. With the less savy I tell them they will save about 15% and will be saving the planet (if they believe that crap, and that's all I have to say abuot that).

The over all difference in a 95% versus an 80% is ROUGHLY $2000. With an average heating bill of $150 for 6 months this is a savings of $23 per month or about $140 per year. With inflation and price increases you can see payoff in about 7-10 years.
YO Marvin... great layman's explanation!

I always get bogged down in tech jargon and my customer can't keep up (may fault, not theirs). Which is always a deal killer.

Do you mind if I borrow from your statement?

Respectfully,

Clover
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Old 10-31-2008, 11:34 AM   #5
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Payback going from 80% Furnace to 90%+


Quote:
Originally Posted by hvaclover View Post
YO Marvin... great layman's explanation!

I always get bogged down in tech jargon and my customer can't keep up (may fault, not theirs). Which is always a deal killer.

Do you mind if I borrow from your statement?

Respectfully,

Clover
You bet you can. Anything to help out a fellow HVAC guy.
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Old 10-31-2008, 12:48 PM   #6
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Payback going from 80% Furnace to 90%+


My HVAC guy said the "payback" is that the units are touchier so more maintenance will be needed, so I didn't do it.
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Old 10-31-2008, 01:23 PM   #7
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Payback going from 80% Furnace to 90%+


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My HVAC guy said the "payback" is that the units are touchier so more maintenance will be needed, so I didn't do it.
I love this. What they are saying is "I don't like putting them in because I make more money on the 80's that I do on the 95's and really don't know much about them so I will tell the customer that more maintenance is needed."

Reality check.

The new 95's are much more involved to install. It requires a lot of modifications to the system to get them in. Many times it takes me 2-3 days to put in a 95 furnace versus an 80 which is often a push pull with a little duct work. I can replace an 80 on one day.

Financially it is in my best interest to sell the 80's since I make more money for less work and can do 5 in a week. They are no brainers. Most of the time I can use the old wire for the thermostat and don't have to string new wire.

The 95's have a warranty and many are 10 years parts and labor. If it goes bad then just call the company and you will have someone to fix it.

I have put in a lot of 95's and not had any problems with any of them with the exception of a kid who put a toy on the exhaust vent of one and that shut the furnace down. Nice to know the pressure regulator was working...
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Old 10-31-2008, 05:43 PM   #8
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Payback going from 80% Furnace to 90%+


Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin Gardens View Post
I love this. What they are saying is "I don't like putting them in because I make more money on the 80's that I do on the 95's and really don't know much about them so I will tell the customer that more maintenance is needed."

Reality check.

The new 95's are much more involved to install. It requires a lot of modifications to the system to get them in. Many times it takes me 2-3 days to put in a 95 furnace versus an 80 which is often a push pull with a little duct work. I can replace an 80 on one day.

Financially it is in my best interest to sell the 80's since I make more money for less work and can do 5 in a week. They are no brainers. Most of the time I can use the old wire for the thermostat and don't have to string new wire.

The 95's have a warranty and many are 10 years parts and labor. If it goes bad then just call the company and you will have someone to fix it.

I have put in a lot of 95's and not had any problems with any of them with the exception of a kid who put a toy on the exhaust vent of one and that shut the furnace down. Nice to know the pressure regulator was working...
What he said!! In spades!
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Old 11-01-2008, 07:05 AM   #9
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Payback going from 80% Furnace to 90%+


Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoyizit View Post
My HVAC guy said the "payback" is that the units are touchier so more maintenance will be needed.
Possible hidden meanings of that statement.

I can't figure out the 80%ers, so don't ask me how to work on a 90 percenter.

I don't want to mess with drilling a hole for the PVC vent.

I don't like change, I only install 80 percenters.

I don't care how much it cost to heat your house, its not my bill.
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Old 11-01-2008, 11:30 AM   #10
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Payback going from 80% Furnace to 90%+


I cant understand the the venting chart so I put 20 90* fittings in fifty feet of vent run.

Now i can't get the furnace to light. Boo-Hoo
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Old 11-01-2008, 12:20 PM   #11
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Payback going from 80% Furnace to 90%+


Quote:
Originally Posted by hvaclover View Post
I cant understand the the venting chart so I put 20 90* fittings in fifty feet of vent run.

Now i can't get the furnace to light. Boo-Hoo
You have that problem too????? I still can't figure that out.

I even went with a smaller 1 inch pipe to save money and the pressure switch still shuts it down.

[sarcam on] These electronic furnaces are just too much for me. I think I will stick with the 80's. I make more money on these anyhow. Who cares what the customers bill will be. I don't have to pay it. [sarcasm off]
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Old 11-01-2008, 01:07 PM   #12
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Payback going from 80% Furnace to 90%+


you think you got problems Marvin!

I can't find the the drive belt for the inducer motor!
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Old 11-01-2008, 02:00 PM   #13
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Payback going from 80% Furnace to 90%+


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you think you got problems Marvin!

I can't find the the drive belt for the inducer motor!
On most 95's it is the exact same belt that runs most mufflers on cars.
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Old 11-02-2008, 12:33 PM   #14
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Payback going from 80% Furnace to 90%+


I'm sorry to hear all this. I trusted my HVAC guy.
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Old 11-02-2008, 01:10 PM   #15
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Payback going from 80% Furnace to 90%+


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I'm sorry to hear all this. I trusted my HVAC guy.
Yea well, I trusted politicians once. Things change.

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