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-   -   new 3 ton hvac Payne units. No cool air comes out when fan, compressor,thermostat run (http://www.diychatroom.com/f17/new-3-ton-hvac-payne-units-no-cool-air-comes-out-when-fan-compressor-thermostat-run-7678/)

runbikeengr 04-10-2007 07:02 AM

new 3 ton hvac Payne units. No cool air comes out when fan, compressor,thermostat run
 
New construction bldg: I just had 2 x new 3 ton residental HVAC Payne units
  • Payne Electric Air Conditioner Manual Model PA10JA036OOOACAA. Model No. PA10JA036. Specification and Installation Manual. Identified as SS-PA10-10.
  • All Style Coil Co., LP. Model No. ASLB 364022T+S Specification and Manual and Data.
  • Payne Furnace: Product No. 3275568-101 Rev. A, Model PG8MAA/PG8JAA. : Installation, Start-up, Operating, and Service and Maintenance Instructions 100/A. Form No. IM-PG8J-02, Catalog No. 53PG-8J1. Cover page P/N 327747-209 Rev. A.
installed and reworked by an hvacer.the bottom hvac cools and works. the attic AC doesnot cool and air barely comes out of the units inspite of new ducting.
Now for the attic A/C. that doesnot work.
The outside box consists of a motor driven compressor,
a cooling coil, and a motor driven fan to blow ambient
air through the coil to conduct heat away.

When the thermostat calls for cooling, it sends
electrical power to the outside unit and also sends a
control signal to the furnace to start the ductwork
blower.

When power is applied to the condenser unit, the fan starts and the compressor
starts. The maximum electrical current used by the fan
is about 1.5 amperes, per the factory manual.

I measured the total current through the outside box.
It was 6 amperes for the attic unit and 9.5 amperes
for the basement unit. This appears to be a
significant difference. There would be no reason for
the fans to use different currents for the attic and
the basement fans, so the measured difference has to
be attributed to the compressors.

To sum up the little bit we know, the attic system
condenser coil fan works, the compressor runs but uses
significantly less current than the basement
compressor, and from other examination, we know that
the vapor line to the compressor doesn't cool down at
all after the compressor has run a few minutes.

Some compressors have a sight glass on the compressor
unit that gives you a peep at what is going on inside.
I doubt that the A/C compressor has a sight glass
since I couldn't see it when I peered down from above.

my compressor has "service valves" on the vapor and
liquid refrigerant lines. I wondered whether either
valve had been left closed at the time some technician measured
the system pressures. If a valve were closed I sure
wouldn't get any cooling.

I believe that a service valve is just that, a valve
but also with a cap screwed over the valve stem to
minimize leakage. I can see the caps but hesitated to
remove them. ,
but I didn't want to make anything worse through my
ignorance of just how to check the valves.
I fear that unless the attic A/C problem is something
like a closed valve, that the repair will be very
costly and perhaps mean a new compressor or even a
whole new system if the coil in the coil box has
gotten plugged with debris. Well, maybe not the coil
getting plugged but the expansion orifice or
capillary.
Any suggestions on how to test the A/C systems w/out have to touch the refrigernat /vapor lines.
To see why the attic hvac doesnot cool even though the fan, compressor turns on.
thanks.

jbfan 04-10-2007 07:33 AM

If it was installed by an hvac company, then I would have them back out to repair. If you try to do anything, they may cry foul and not cover any warrenty.
There could be any number of reaseons this is not working.

harleyrider 04-10-2007 08:53 AM

If its NEW and its not working, why are you on the internet looking for answers? I would be on the PHONE screaming at the guys I gave all that money to..............

runbikeengr 04-10-2007 03:36 PM

haha
 
I made all kinda of demands in writing, legally, nicely pleading with him, filed with every agency, to the state contractors board govt. who blantly ignored it even though i filed and presented a detailed report with pictures, code /law/ statue/ common sense, etc. violations, estimates from other contractors, etc. hahaha x 10 exp. 6; spent more in esq. fees, etc. than the costs and time all told me to get . so I am left holding the bag, mess and get other 3 rd hvacer to fix it. this last hvacer i got to do a fix declared it worked on his bill and when I asked him point blank. so went i went onseveral occasions and checked it. and also with several other and another more knowledgeable friend a ME ,EE, and a owner of several apts. checked it out . adn no cold air. The manf. tech support doesnot seem to want tohelp either cause of liability of since I am not a cert. repeat buyer -"dumb gurl" as some contractors said why explain i wouldnot explain, in the field here I am desparately trying to find some professor of HVAC, contractor who knows there stuff not just BS like the majority of contractors and i went thru and asked and got bs bids from several. U wont believe how bad the quality of hvac /electric, etc. contractors subs, etc. in the building industry. the original hvac licensed even put holes in the hvac systems when the installation manual says "donot put a hole here can cause fire, death etc."

runbikeengr 04-10-2007 03:47 PM

i did repeatedly i am on my 3rd hvacer installer.
 
i have gone thru all the legal, agency etc. $ wasting moves, etc. I am left holding the bag
I made all kinda of demands in writing, legally, nicely pleading with him, filed with every agency, to the state contractors board govt. who blantly ignored it even though i filed and presented a detailed report with pictures, code /law/ statue/ common sense, etc. violations, estimates from other contractors, etc. hahaha x 10 exp. 6; spent more in esq. fees, repair costs, etc. than the costs and time all told me to get . so I am left holding the bag, mess and get other 3 rd hvacer to fix it. this last hvacer i got to do a fix declared it worked on his bill and when I asked him point blank. so went i went onseveral occasions and checked it. and also with several other and another more knowledgeable friend a ME ,EE, and a owner of several apts. checked it out . adn no cold air. The manf. tech support doesnot seem to want tohelp either cause of liability of since I am not a cert. repeat buyer -"dumb gurl" as some contractors said why explain i wouldnot explain, in the field here I am desparately trying to find some professor of HVAC, contractor who knows there stuff not just BS like the majority of contractors and i went thru and asked and got bs bids from several. U wont believe how bad the quality of hvac /electric, etc. contractors subs, etc. in the building industry. the original hvac licensed even put holes in the hvac systems when the installation manual says "donot put a hole here can cause fire, death etc." this last one charged $70/hr. and declared everything worked. All these hvacers just want more money but no responsiblity. I would take a course if i had the time from my job - to pay for the more exp fubar repairs that the original hvacer messed up and such.i had to reopen up the walls, etc. since there was no as built drawings, etc. and what a mess. he even used bar wires and put black and white tape on them to make them and opposite wites to look legit, and hooked the electric wires to a garbage disposal, and small circuits in kitchen. Criminal act, some one (we) almost got killed trying to undo this a friend and me when we tried to figure out the mess.
so if u can help i can email more info on specific i know its hard to do via email without pixs which i have and more info. I am trying to find knowlegable hvac /elect. contractor since he messed up both.

Speedy Petey 04-10-2007 04:09 PM

I totally agree with jbfan, but I do see the predicament you are in.

All I can say is once the units have the correct voltage and amperage feed hooked up to them the electrician's job is done. We DO NOT troubleshoot HVAC units.
This is a topic for an HVAC forum.

harleyrider 04-10-2007 04:39 PM

Quote:

Any suggestions on how to test the A/C systems w/out have to touch the refrigernat /vapor lines.
To see why the attic hvac doesnot cool even though the fan, compressor turns on.
thanks.
Tempature split, the supplys should be 20 degrees cooler then returns....after 20 minutes of run time

jwhite 04-10-2007 05:23 PM

I have been doing HVAC controls work for several years now. Often I am on site with the HVAC tech during startups. I can say that if the two units are exactly the same size, then it sounds like the attic unit is under less load. This could be because it is low on refigerant.

The test ports are just that. Test ports. The ball valves are to close the test port, and the cap is to insure that, should the valve open, there will be no leak.

One impotant thing to know about this is: IT IS A VIOLATION OF FEDERAL LAW TO DO ANY WORK ON THE REFIGERANT PART OF A UNIT WITHOUT A FEDERAL CFC LICENCE. FINES CAN REACH UP TO 10,000.00 FOR A SMALL LEAK. In fact you cannot even buy refigerant without a licnece.

This is not a DIY project at all. While I feel for your pain, you will have to hire this done.

runbikeengr 04-10-2007 06:42 PM

the valves are open on the compressor
 
but no cold air coming out of registers. at least getting close. these are hvac units never used just during testing. checked and the valves are open. the vapor and the refrig. cu tubes do not get cold when running. the temp.on the theomostat doesnot budge on this upper unit. i think theres a 5 yr waranty on the parts?
Theres an all style coil. thanks

runbikeengr 04-10-2007 06:48 PM

20 degrees delta dreamon
 
boy i never got that but i donot have professional tools either. they the theromostat never dropped 20 deg while running. i took reg thermometer with 2 clamps adn never got that delta. i wouldl love to have it. but this is CALIF . fruit , nuts, flakes.
Any other testing ideas to see why no cold air comes out thru the system. thanks

runbikeengr 04-10-2007 06:59 PM

no did not touch, dont want to touch the refrig.
 
unfortunately the hvacer did the electric also licensed in both fields but all of these contractors had licenses . the valves are open in the compressors. turning on the unit on in attic , the refrig and vapor cu set lines do not get cold and no cold air comes out of the grilles. put 2 return airs in the upper unit- the 2nd hvacer did when he reducted the system that was a snakes mess before with u turns, boy scout knots. etc.checked the electric outlets near the condensors and they are ok . any way willtake your input and see again. the bldge inspectors that check never even installed/or worked on an hvac/. they didnot even turn it on or the electric. thanks


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