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Need help with heat and hot water issue

9K views 50 replies 5 participants last post by  beenthere 
#1 · (Edited)
Hi everyone,

I'm new to this forum. How's everyone doing? Good I hope. First off, let me just say that I'm not a pro by any means on fixing heating systems. That said, I've been learning all about my system from research online for the past few days. Here's a quick description on my issue. There's only minimal heat and luke warm water throughout the house. Some areas seem like there's no heat at all. All the taps have luke warm water. The house is heated by radiant floor heating and the heating system setup is a slant/fin gas boiler with an indirect fired water heater. It's also controlled by 4 honeywell zone valves.

What I've done so far in diagnosing the problem:
Checked:Boiler fires, pipes are hot, circulator seems to be operating, hot to the touch, psi and temp on boiler all seem normal,Psi between 20-30 hot, temp 180-200
Checked thermostats opens zones, OK
zone valves, OK
Bled system

Can't seem to find what the problem is until I noticed one of the aquastats connected to the indirect fired water heater has a slight leak at the well. It doesn't seem to be a loose connection. It seems to be leaking from the well hole. Can that cause the aquastat to malfunction and not do its job? Could that be the source of the problem? The aquastat is a Honeywell L4006A single function.
At first I thought it was the circulator(B&G) that was the problem but now I'm not so sure. The boiler fires every once in awhile but there seems to be no hot water circulating or not enough circulating. The floor in one of the rooms upstairs seems to be slightly warm but other rooms seem to not be getting any heat and theres only luke warm water in all taps. Had to take a luke warm shower this morning...brrrbrrr. Lucky it's not that cold here in Vancouver and the Olympic spirit is keeping me a little warmer. Go CANADA Go!!!
Anyways some help from a pro would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!!!:thumbup:

Here's a pic of the leak on aquastat. Notice how it's corroding the bottom area.
 

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#2 ·
Its possible the well has corroded through. And needs replaced. The aquastat may now also be corroded that it can't call to heat the water up.
However, this should have no effect on your heat. Unless the indirect is being used as a buffer tank.

Is the indirect also on the zone panel? If so, it could be that the zone panel is having a problem.
 
#4 ·
You said you have 4 zones. So either you have a zone panel that the zone valves connect to. Or teh zone valves have end switches. that all tie into a control on the boiler.

So if they connect to a control on the boiler, it could be that control. If they connect to a panel before the boiler control, that would be the zone panel.
 
#5 ·
It connects to an end switch but I don't think thats the problem. I think I just figured it out. It's the circulator pump. It mde some noise a few days ago and now just this morning the noise is louder and continuous. For some reason I have hot water now. Not as hot as it should be be there is hot water. I turned the boiler off for now and theres still hot water in the taps. So I'm sure its the circulator pump. Its a bell and gossett one piece so I don't think I can service the internal parts. I'm about to head out to go grab one now. Thanks for your help beenthere. I also think I need to replace the leaky aquastat well too.
 
#7 ·
Ok, I finished changing the circulator and aquastat well. There's hot water now but the heating seems to be taking along time. I feel the floor getting warm but the home is not that warm yet. The thermostats are turned up to almost 30. I checked to see if all the zones are open and they are. It was weird because at first 2 zones seemed closed but as soon as I turned the thermostats up more the 2 zones opened. So now I'm wondering how long it takes for the radiant floor heating to heat the room to the stat temp? The indirect fired water heater had to be heated from cold after I drained most of the water out to change the aquastat well. It's a 60 gallon tank so I'm thinking 3-4 hours to heat up to the high limit. I can hear some gurgling in the one of the pipes off the boiler but I think it should be fine since the hot water seems to be getting hotter.
 
#8 ·
Slab floors can take hours to reheat.
In some older larger homes. It can take 2 days to reheat the floors.

You didn't have to drain the indirect to change that aquastat or its well. Too late now though.
Air in the radiant loops will slow down the heat also.
 
#9 · (Edited)
Thanks so much for the replies beenthere. You said I didn't have to drain the indirect to change the aquastat but the aquastat is screwed into the indirect. So water won't come spurting out if I change it without draining? If so, thats good to hear b/c I might have to remove it again b/c the well I got doesn't have a bracket that screws onto the aquastat like the original one. So I just kind of slipped the aquastat bulb into the well and it just kinda stays in position and not secured properly. Also I notice the bulb is discoloured and blackish. Would that be ok still? Or should I replace the aquastat.
I'm still scratching my head a bit though. I had all the thermostats turned up to close to 30 degrees celsius and the boiler kept running for like 4 hours straight and the temperature on the boiler seems very slow to reach temp to shut it off. So I just turned the thermostats down to about just over 25 celsius and the boiler went off about a few minutes later but the house doesn't seem to be that warm.The temp reads 150ish F. The water in the taps are getting hot though but not quite there yet. Maybe you're right that it takes along time to heat. Plus I drained the 60 gallon indirect almost completely and refilled with cold water. The house is fairly large about 3000 sq ft and its about 15-20 years old so not that old.
I'm still a bit confused b/c if the boiler stops when the thermostats in diff rooms are turned down then how is the radiant floor being heated to the room temp if it takes hours to days even?
Let me explain in more detail about the set up. The indirect has an aquastat thats set to 140, I'm guessing this is the low limit. Then on one of the boiler pipes is another aquastat set at 160, high limit I guess. The boiler it self has a mutifunction aquastat which has a high and low limit set. One of the other boiler pipes going out of the boiler has a thermometer attached to it and thats the one that seems to being moving slow. I don't think theres anything wrong with it b/c it reads the same temp as the tridicator on the boiler itself.
 
#10 ·
On the well changing for the indirect. You shut off the water supply. Connect a drain hose to the drain. Open the drain valve. When the water stops running. QUICKLY unscrew the well and insert and screw in the new well(have new well prepped before you begin procedure).
When you unscrew the well. The hole will draw air in so water can come out the drain. Very little if any water will come out the well port, if your quick.


The aquastat in the indirect is its operating aquastat, not a low limit.

The other aquastat on the pipe is probably a second high limit, that is code required.

The boilers main aquastat may be a dual or triple aquastat.
As long as either the indirect or one of the thermostats are calling of r heat. The boiler should run up to the setting of the aquastat on the boiler.

60 gallons of cold water should only take 40,000 to 50,000BTUs to heat up to 140, depending how cold the water was to start with.

Your walls and furnishings are not up to temp yet. So they are taking heat from your body and making it feel cooler then normal. may take several hours to get back to normal.
 
#11 · (Edited)
Thanks for the tip on changing the aquastat beenthere.

Ok the house has hot water now but the boiler temp doesn't seem to be reaching the limit. So the heat doesn't seem to be reaching thermostat temps. Also the thermometer on one of the pipes doesn't reach temp also. Before I changed the circulator the boiler would fire and reach temp, 180-200F. Now the boiler stops and the temp on the tridicator reads 15psi and 140F. The thermometer on the pipe reads 130F. Thermostats are just below 25 celsius. Have hot water but heat doesn't seem to be reaching to temp. The aquastat on the indirect is at 145 is that right? The other aquastat I mentioned is at 165 is that right also?

Possible air trap in system? i didn't bleed it after I replaced the pump and I heard quite a bit of gurgling in one on the pipes. I'll flush the system again and see.
 
#12 ·
Not bleeding can cause the loops not to heat.
but, the boiler would still go to temp.
Its possible you have a loose wire at the aquastat.

145 for an indirect is fine. The 165 on the aquastat on the pipe, would prevent the boiler from reaching 180, if its mounted between the boiler and tempering valve.

Post pics.
 
#13 · (Edited)
What I notice now is the boiler keeps cycling on and off. It'll cycle on for a few minute and cycle off for a few minutes but the temp doesn't reach the limit point. Here's some pics of the setup in the house.
 

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#14 ·
"Spydey"--I know nothing about you heating problem, we don't use boiler set-ups here.
Allow me to say that I pull for the U. S. athletes 100%, in all events--but one now.
I'm going to be watching and cheering on your Canadian young lady figure skater as she performs--for her Mother above all.
For those of you who may not have heard: This young lady's Mom and Dad arrived in Vancouver Saturday to watch their daughter compete in the Olympics. Her Mom had a massive heart attack early Sunday A.M. and passed away.
I doubt there will be a dry eye when she skates tonight.
Thanks, David
 
#15 · (Edited)
"Spydey"--I know nothing about you heating problem, we don't use boiler set-ups here.
Allow me to say that I pull for the U. S. athletes 100%, in all events--but one now.
I'm going to be watching and cheering on your Canadian young lady figure skater as she performs--for her Mother above all.
For those of you who may not have heard: This young lady's Mom and Dad arrived in Vancouver Saturday to watch their daughter compete in the Olympics. Her Mom had a massive heart attack early Sunday A.M. and passed away.
I doubt there will be a dry eye when she skates tonight.
Thanks, David
[/quot

I'm sure Joannie Rochette,her mother(R.I.P)and all Canadians,I myself included, will really appreciate all the support and condolences from people of all nationalities. On behalf of all Canadians,I personally thank you David for your kindness and support. GO CANADA GO!!!:thumbup:
 
#17 · (Edited)
No, it doesn't seem to be reaching temp.But I do have hot water. Just the radiant heat is not sufficient and the thermostats don't reach temp as does the boiler. It was reaching temp prior to me changing out the pump and putting a new well on the aquastat in the indirect. Maybe the aquastat on the indirect is faulty or not working properly after putting a new well thats not original on it. In my previous posts I mentioned that the aquastat well I changed was different than the original one in that it did not have a bracket that mounted to the stat. I just plugged the aquastat bulb in the well and hung the stat against it. I'll post a pic of it when I get a chance. I also mentioned that the aquastat bulb was darkly discoloured. I check the wiring again a see if theres any loose connections. Will post back with an update.
 
#18 ·
Unless the indirect is being used as a buffer tank, the indirect and its well don't have control over your heating loops.

You had heating and hot water problems before you changed the circ, thats why you changed the circ.

Discoloration of the bulb is not unusual.

You have a rats nest of wire connections from the zone valves. Could be a loose wire in there.

Do you have a volt meter?

Could be that you need to purge your radiant loops. But, air wouldn't prevent the boiler from reaching temp.
 
#19 ·
Unless the indirect is being used as a buffer tank, the indirect and its well don't have control over your heating loops.

You had heating and hot water problems before you changed the circ, thats why you changed the circ.

Discoloration of the bulb is not unusual.

You have a rats nest of wire connections from the zone valves. Could be a loose wire in there.

Do you have a volt meter?

Could be that you need to purge your radiant loops. But, air wouldn't prevent the boiler from reaching temp.

I do have a voltmeter but I don't think there's a problem with the wiring because the boiler did reach temp prior to changing the circ. I spoke to one of my friends dad who owns a plumbing and heating company and he told me to flush the boiler. I mentioned I didn't do that after I replaced the circ and I did notice a considerable amout of gurgling in one of the pipes after. I will do that and go from there.
 
#20 ·
Flushing a boiler is one of the worse things to do to a boiler.
Purging isn't good either. But its a necessary evil to get air out at times.

Once again. AIR will not stop the boiler from reaching temp. Ubnless its in the boiler. In which case, your indirect wouldn't be heating either.
 
#21 · (Edited)
Flushing a boiler is one of the worse things to do to a boiler.
Purging isn't good either. But its a necessary evil to get air out at times.

Once again. AIR will not stop the boiler from reaching temp. Ubnless its in the boiler. In which case, your indirect wouldn't be heating either.
Weird, after I did some laundry I checked the boiler and the temp was at 190ish, psi 20ish. Then I checked it again about 45 min later and it went back to the 140ish mark again. I didn't flush the sytem though since you said its not good to do. So how would I get air out of the pipes. Maybe there is air in the boiler itself? Cause I did a flush before I changed the circ out. Do you think I damaged the boiler maybe by flushing the first time? I made sure the boiler was cool before I did the flush as I heard that running cold water through a hot boiler is really bad.
 
#22 ·
It was up to 190 because the indirect called for the boiler to recover it.

If there was air in the boiler preventing it from heating up for you radiant zones, then it would work the same for the indirect.

I didn't really take notice to a good purge set up in any of the pics you posted.

Purge valves should have been installed for each heating zone. Were they?

I would find out why the boiler isn't getting a call to run when the heating zones call. Brfore I purged or bled the system and put more fresh water into it then needed. Fresh water, is the enemy of your boiler..
 
#23 · (Edited)
It was up to 190 because the indirect called for the boiler to recover it.

If there was air in the boiler preventing it from heating up for you radiant zones, then it would work the same for the indirect.

I didn't really take notice to a good purge set up in any of the pics you posted.

Purge valves should have been installed for each heating zone. Were they?

I would find out why the boiler isn't getting a call to run when the heating zones call. Brfore I purged or bled the system and put more fresh water into it then needed. Fresh water, is the enemy of your boiler..

Sorry what I meant was purging the boiler and loops of air not flushing. There are purge valves for each zone. I'll posts pics of them along with this post. So what are the right steps involved in purging?

The first 2 pics are the zone purge valves close up and the 3rd pic are all the valves together.
 

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#24 ·
Not the easiest set up.

Your going to end up putting lots of fresh water into the system.
I'll tell you how to do it. But, its not whats causing your boiler not to heat up on a heat call.

Shut the stop valve at each purge valve. Connect garden hose and run it to a drain. Open purge valve, and then open fill valve.

Run until all air is out(hard part is telling when all air is out).
Then close fill valve, and then close purge valve. And open shut off..


Before you add all this fresh water to your boiler. Look for your control problem.
 
#25 ·
Not the easiest set up.

Your going to end up putting lots of fresh water into the system.
I'll tell you how to do it. But, its not whats causing your boiler not to heat up on a heat call.

Shut the stop valve at each purge valve. Connect garden hose and run it to a drain. Open purge valve, and then open fill valve.

Run until all air is out(hard part is telling when all air is out).
Then close fill valve, and then close purge valve. And open shut off..


Before you add all this fresh water to your boiler. Look for your control problem.

Ok, thanks for the step by step instructions.
I just notice that when there's a call for hot water the boiler will heat up to temp but the thermometer on the zone pipes does not. I also notice that theres a lot of gurgling in the zone pipes. I rememeber I purged the zones but I might have forgotten to shut the shut offs on the other zone valves so that might have let more air in.
 
#26 ·
Ok, it's not a problem with air in the lines. It must be a control issue as beenthere was saying. How can I isolate the problem? I have a volt meter so what should I check first? The thermostats on every zone doesnt seem to be reaching set temp.
 
#27 ·
Ok, it's not a problem with air in the lines.

Told you that. So now you added micro bubbles that will take days to weeks to get out of the boiler. In the mean time. They get to create rust so it can decrease your boilers life span.

It must be a control issue as beenthere was saying. How can I isolate the problem? I have a volt meter so what should I check first? The thermostats on every zone doesnt seem to be reaching set temp.

Low voltage wire connections at the boiler control.
If they are ok. then work your way back to the zone valve,
 
#29 ·
I'd start at that transformer then.

The low voltage wires will be those at that transformer. And the ones coming from the zone valve s and running to the aquastat from the zone valves.
 
#31 ·
Well, if the connections at the transformer sparked when you touched them last time. It will probably do it when you check voltage. But that spark basically indicates a loos connection.

Follow the wires back from the zone valves, and check at connections.
 
#32 ·
Well, if the connections at the transformer sparked when you touched them last time. It will probably do it when you check voltage. But that spark basically indicates a loos connection.

Follow the wires back from the zone valves, and check at connections.

Sorry for not posting back as I've been busy working the last few days. Ok, here's what I have done to try to isolate the problem. I shut off all the thermostats in each zone and then I turned one on at a time to see if the zone opens and boiler fires. All the thermostats fire up the boiler and zones open when called for. The thing I notice is that the boiler doesn't stay on until the temps are reached at the thermostats and the boiler itself. I checked for any loose wiring on the aquastat at the boiler and the transformer and relay but couldn't find any. I'm gonna open the electrical box connected to the boiler and see if theres any problems with the wiring. How can I test to see if the aquastat and relays are at fault? Also what is the component next to the relay in the pic below? There's like a metal wire type thing on it. Is that suppose to be able to shift over to the other side? What is its purpose?
 

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#33 ·
That is THE relay. the part where you attach the wires, is just a convenience terminal board.
The wire clip is there to prevent the relay from coming loose or falling out.

You said there is a aquastat on the pipe. is that set for the same temp as the boilers aquastat?

Is it possible the boiler has always operated this way, and you just never took notice before?
Its common for a boiler to have its burner shut off before the room/zone reaches temp. The circulator keeps running and keeps the rad/baseboards/radiant loop fed with hot water. And when the boiler cools down again, The burner restarts.
 
#34 · (Edited)
That is THE relay. the part where you attach the wires, is just a convenience terminal board.
The wire clip is there to prevent the relay from coming loose or falling out.

You said there is a aquastat on the pipe. is that set for the same temp as the boilers aquastat?

Is it possible the boiler has always operated this way, and you just never took notice before?
Its common for a boiler to have its burner shut off before the room/zone reaches temp. The circulator keeps running and keeps the rad/baseboards/radiant loop fed with hot water. And when the boiler cools down again, The burner restarts.


The aquastat on the pipe was at 165F but I set it to 180 which is the same as the low on the boilers aquastat.

It is possible that it operated like this before. The house seems to be pretty warm now. But I'm still wondering if the boiler is suppose to reach 180 when the thermostat is turned up. I turned each thermostat one by one up to like 30C but the indicator doesn't seem to reach the 30C mark before the boiler shuts off. I forgot to mention the thermostats are the mechanical kind with the mercury bulb.

The boiler seems to only be at around 140F until the indirect calls which then heats the boiler to 190F. Is it suppose to reach at least 180 when there's a call for heat? Also the themometer attached to one of the pipes in the pics below used to read at least 180F. Now it doesn't even come close. The highest I've seen it go after I changed the circ is 150F.
 

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#35 ·
I would expect the boiler to cycle on and off several times before the room temp is met with the thermostat set to 30°C(86°F).

Does the indirects aquastat connect to the same control as the heating zones. or do the heating zones go to another device first.


Post the model number of the aquastat that it mounted on the pipe.
 
#37 ·
I would expect the boiler to cycle on and off several times before the room temp is met with the thermostat set to 30°C(86°F).

Does the indirects aquastat connect to the same control as the heating zones. or do the heating zones go to another device first.


Post the model number of the aquastat that it mounted on the pipe.

I see, I didn't let it cycle a few times. Once the boiler shuts off I just assumed it wouldn't reach the 30C mark.

As for the indirects aquastat, it looks like it ties into the same relay BUT theres another zone valve on the boiler in pipe that goes to the indirect. Theres only 4 thermostats in the house so I'm not really sure what that fifth zone valve is for. Maybe it closes the indirect when heat calls?

The aquastat is a Honeywell. It says L6006A on the inside of the front cover but on top of the aquastat it says L4006A 1868 so I don't know which is the right model number.
 
#38 ·
Just curious Spydey...on the recirculating pump...did you buy one compatible with your system? The one you put in looks like a Grundfos or B&G designed for minimal head pressure and lift. You did say your house is approx. 3,000 sq. ft. with 4 zone controls?
Yah I'm pretty sure it's compatible because it fit right in. The old one that was on there before was a B&G and the new one I got is a Grundfos. The Grundfos is the same specs as the B&G. I didn't have hot water before the change and now the hot water is fine so I don't think the circ is the issue here but thanks for asking.
 
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