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Mini Split Seer Question. Please HELP A GIRL OUT!

6K views 68 replies 9 participants last post by  beenthere 
#1 ·
Hello everybody!

So I have spent weeks with HVAC contractors coming out and quoting a mini split system for my home. I use window units to cool in the summer and a 100 year-old oil furnace (exaggerating) to heat. So something better has to be put in place as the oil burner is like burning cash.

I received 3 quotes from $18 600 to $23 000 for 2x3 ton systems as that is cheaper than a 5 ton plus a single unit. However, I was outraged and refuse to pay that much so here is my new plan. I will purchase the system by myself and have a certified HVAC installer hook it up.

I settled for the LG series and was about to find it online for a very decent price but noticed something odd on the homepage of the dealer (good reputation and reviews. don't want to name the site cuz I don't want to seem like I am advertising for them)
Anyways, if you look at the picture you will see that the system is advertised as a 33 000 BTU with a 21 SEER rating. However, the description of this system states that the condenser is a 24 000 BTU and the LG picture wall unit is only 16 SEER. So how does that ad up to 33 000 BTU and 21 SEER?????

PLEASE help me out on this one. I want to go ahead with the purchase of 3 tri zone units and already found a certified HVAC installer for a good price.

I was able to cut the price of EVERYTHING in half and will come out around 9k all together instead of home depot's outrageous 18 000 for an old mitsubishi system. :vs_karate:

Thank you so much! :smile:
 

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#47 ·
I'd still like to know how the OP is sizing this equipment. What load calculator software are you using to determine total heat loss/gain in your home?
Since your taking on the responsibility of sizing and selecting the equipment then you know the huge problems oversizing can cause. And the excess money it will cost you.
Since your acting as the GC who will pull the permit? Who's responsibility is it to provide line set, electrical and other installation supplies? Who will be doing equipment commissioning and handling the warranty? Will the equipment be delivered to you or to the installing contractor? Who will inspect it to determine if it is correct and free of damage?
If you think this post is harsh and trying to talk you out of what you've planned, it's not. These are all part of a standard install, something we do all the time. It's not just about chucking something in that makes cold and hot air blow around. BTU ratings, CFM, average weather conditions in the area, and much more are all part of what your taking the responsibility of handing. If it's not done, the equipment cannot be properly selected or sized and it'll never work right. These aren't toasters or tvs, a fair amount of work must be done in the field to make the unit operate. Ratings such as SEER and capacity are all givin in ideal conditions at the factory. By no means does it mean you'll automatically get those ratings in your install. It all depends on the hands the bring the machine to life. I've seen way to much equipment over the years, mini splits included, that were installed horribly and never achieved anywhere near the performance they were intended to deliver.
 
#55 · (Edited)
Contractors hate anything that will cut their profit, to be honest i don't like the idea of online sales that much, not a contractor but some of the concerns are valid.

If you want to do a real load calculation, you can purchase hvac-calc for $50 or so and do a room by room calc. There's also an online one but it only does the whole house. Do not use square footage, it is totally, totally inaccurate and you can end up with far more capacity than you need.

The issue is that garbage in = garbage out and you have to know a lot about how the house has been constructed, understand air changes per hour, r-values, etc.

For a heatpump, you actually have to see what the capacity will be at design temperature if you want to heat without burning any oil. They'll be too big for a/c, hence the reason to get mini-splits that can run as low as 30-40% capacity.

Like I said before, you have to look at heating capacity curves/tables if you can get them, select the models that do a great job in cold temps. A lot of them may not do well and really lose a lot of capacity as it gets colder. Sizing right is complex.
 
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#60 ·
You know.... I spent a tick over five years working for a residential sales for an HVAC contractor. He did commercial and industrial as well, but I just did residential. The absolute biggest mistake is not sizing equipment correctly to meet the load. He was ADAMANT that I did a complete Manual J Load calculation on each and every system I ever sold.

I can't tell you how many times competitors just went with what was already there or did a simple SQ. FT calculation. One time was a huge 111' new construction long ranch over a 3/4 walkout basement. His cheap "builder's guy quoted him a 5 Ton cooling system and whatever the heat was. The house was buried in the middle of the woods and I explained to him that 5 tons was WAY too much cooling capacity for the load calculation on that home.

But, he did need 5 tons worth of air movement to be able to get all the air where it needed to be. So, I recommended a 3-1/2 Ton cooling system with variable speed blower for more static pressure and better humidity removal along with a dual zoned heating and cooling system. My more complex system and ductwork came in about double what his builder's HVAC guy came in at.... so he went with them.

And, like the OP.... probably cursed me up one side and down the other as being a greedy contractor.

But, I got the last laugh. About a year later, I was quoting the system for the lot right next door. It was going to be another $750K+ house configured much like the one next door I had "lost" the year earlier. The homeowner saw me in the driveway and remembering me, asked me to come over.

I knew the instant I went in the house what was wrong.... it felt like a cave in there.... ultra cold and DAMP. He took me to the north side of the house where they had a walk-in closet larger than my living room (20' x 20' if not even bigger). It had motorized hanging shelves that could be controlled remotely for changing clothes between seasons.

The entire ceiling of this closet was covered in black mold. As was most of the basement ceiling.You see.... this home had a cooling system that was WAY too big and would not run long enough to pull the humidity out of the house.

He asked me what could be done to "fix" it. I laughed and said, well it's certainly going to cost a LOT more than what I originally quoted, because now all the finished drywall will need to come down for me to properly size the new ductwork, equipment and air distribution system of my original design.

He tried to bring me into his lawsuit, but my boss wouldn't have any part of it. We stood by our initial quote and deduction on how the system should be designed, but he went with the cheapest price and got all kinds of trouble for his corner cutting.

A year later on the final walk through with his next door neighbor, It was 100+ degrees in the shade and we had less than a 2 degree difference in temperature from one end of that house to the other. The other guy was still involved in his lawsuit.

I'm just trying to say to the OP.... that unless you know exactly what you are doing sizing the equipment and the operating parameters and specifications, it's a lot more complex than picking equipment off of a website and getting it installed.

A contractor has more than material and labor to deal with. There is a ton of schooling and licensing, rent utilities, business expenses, fully stocked service trucks, taxes, accountants, business attorney's, payroll and business taxes and a whole host of other things that you simply can't add to your cart on a website.

They still have all of those expenses to deal with every single day. It's all stuff they need to be a viable, on going business. So don't be so quick to diss a professional who plays by the rules, does his/her due diligence on staying current with the laws of the land and properly designing and installing your system. There is a LOT more that goes into it other than equipment and labor.

Just sayin....
 
#2 ·
can't answer your question about mini-splits, but here's some food for thought:

1. You say you have an oil burning furnace. Is it forced air, hot water furnaces are referred to as boilers.

2. You say the house is 100 years old and the energy costs are high. This house could have very high heat loss; you sure the mini-splits will cut it?

3. SEER is for cooling, you have to look at hspf for heat. Also look at cold weather capacity, like 17f and below.

4. Have you looked into ways of fixing up the house to reduce heat loss? What you can do will depend on the house and budget.

5. Got natural gas available? For half of what you're about to pay for mini-splits, you can get a high efficiency gas furnace put in. With the mini-splits you'll still have to keep and maintain the oil burning furnace for backup if the heatpumps don't keep up.
 
#3 ·
user12345a

Thanks for your reply. My furnace is a boiler with radiators and is over 20 years old. The unit on the pic goes down to 14f. I looked at all the options. No natural gas close by and I would have to go ductless for upstairs anyways because of the layout of my house. I am sick and tired of cooling in the summer with window units due to several reasons. It caused me water damage before and they eat up a lot of electric. On top of all of that they are unsafe for a single female household. We had car break ins in the neighborhood and the frist thing the police said to me when they paroled my neighborhood was "get rid of these window units"

9k for a full cooling and heating system is a lot cheaper than having central air installed AND replace the boiler. I used to live in Japan and I am a big fan of mini split.

Please correct me if any of my statements are incorrect. I am new to all of this.

p.s.the house is old but the windows have been replaced and it is well (not top notch) insulted.
 
#4 · (Edited)
In the next couple weeks on two homes I'm replacing two systems purchased online. As an engineer, I know my systems, but I anticipate making mistakes.

Even with seemingly matched units, these are not plug and play assemblies. If something is amiss, you made the choice and you're stuck with the problem.

Most contractors will not entertain owner bought equipment. If the owner made a mistake, no one can be made happy. The contractors that do install owner gear also don't float funds between equipment purchase and customer payment - or can't float funds.

From the questions you're asking, I suggest you learn more so that you can better assess contractors and find one worth building a working relationship.

As to your advertisement, that's a two ton system. Note the period. The three wall units cannot all run at the same time. The three wall units provide independent control of different rooms for a two ton total load by operating in sequence. But, the load is the load and if you need five tons, that's what you need.

As to the certified installer, why can't they take complete responsibility including purchase? I can't imagine they pay more for the gear and for the cost of their effort, you'll have a correctly sized and matched system.

Have you checked if natural gas is available from the local utility company? If available, utility bills will be less than oil or heat pump. - Ok no gas.

Looking again at the $3K system and $9K total, the price for replacing our three ton system was about $6,000 including the system. I anticipate the equipment cost should be 40% to 50% of the total cost. Six grand to set one box, hang three more, run three sets of pipes and three sets of wires seems a bit much. Does he include a licensed electrician for the power wiring?

Please keep in mind, if you air condition more of your house than you do now, your electric bill will likely be same or more even with more efficient units.

Hope this helps, good luck and keep us posted.
 
#5 ·
9k for a full cooling and heating system is a lot cheaper than having central air installed AND replace the boiler. I used to live in Japan and I am a big fan of mini split.
Sounds reasonable.

Look for splits that can go down to 0f, doing a decent job maintaining capacity. don't know much, just that they exist.

The only issue is that you'll still need to burn oil and will have to deal with a boiler maintenance.

You should also do what you can to cut the heat loss; you can't fix an old, leaky house with mini-splits.
 
#6 · (Edited)
throrope,

The quotes that I got from installers who would include purchase plus install all started at $18,000. Home depot even used mitsubishi units for the estimate that are discontinued. A lot of contractors here inflate the estimate because MD is on a mini split high. I can get the system for 6-7k. 11k for installation is outrageous!

The plan was to purchase 2 of the systems on the picture and place each on one side of the house. I need to heat 1500sq.
Please correct me if I am wrong, but are you saying that the 3 wall units will not be able to run at the same time with the 24000 BTU condenser displayed? Could I run the three units at the same time with a 36000 BTU condenser? Or what about a 54000 BTU and run all 5 units off the one 54000 BTU condenser and get one unit for the bedroom separately? It is on the other side of the house and not easily connected to the 5 ton system. Also, would you agree that the SEER rating for the 24000BTU condenser and the 3 units on the picture are 16 SEER and NOT 21 SEER as advertised in the header of the picture?

I attached a new pic that would work better I guess.

Believe me. I researched this day and night. I did not go into all the technical details, but pricing and performance. The installer would charge $3000 to hook up the units that I purchase from the site. The site is actually quite nice. It is certified by all major brands and a google trusted store. It lists installers who are HVAC certified and willing to hook up systems purchased from the site.
This way I will pay 6000k for the system and 3000k for the installation...

any input?

ps. how do I know how much SEER a unit has? is there a way to calculate it based on BTU or do I have to trust the description?

user12345a
why do I still need to burn oil? I was told that a good heat pump mini split will do in MD where winters are snowy but relatively mild.
 

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#7 ·
Wasn't looking at climate - how cold can it get at night?

You should have a load calculation done and see if the heatpumps will cut it at design temp - nearly coldest ever experience.

You still may need to burn some oil. You could always do something like get an electric boiler for backup, but would need a 200 amp service. that or baseboard heaters.
 
#9 · (Edited)
hspf is equal to delivered btus divided by power consumption, wattage in heating mode delivered over the entire season based on lab tests.

For central systems the hspf is a function of the indoor coil used, condenser and air handler.

For the ductless splits I have no idea how the ratings work, if many different heads can be matched to one condenser model.

The most important aspect is how the unit maintains capacity as the temperature drops outside, since the idea is to burn as little oil as possible.

I would take a 8 hspf unit which maintains it's output well to 0F than a 11 hspf one which starts losing ground much sooner and shuts off at 10f or something.
 
#12 ·
2 Mitsi 3 ton inverter heats pumps(heat down to 4°F as I recall) with 3 indoor cassettes each(total of 6). Cost about 12 grand online(give or take a couple hundred varying on which online site is used, and whether or not tax is paid). No line sets, electrical equipment/material, no slim duct to conceal the line sets to keep the outside of the house looking clean and nice.

So throw 25% mark up(not much of a mark up) on that price, and you have 15 grand for the units alone. Throw on 2500(includes mark up) for the rest of the material for the install, and your at $17,500.00, and then add in 3 days labor, maybe more depending on how the lines have to be ran. 23 grand isn't much for the job then, since it would include a parts and labor warranty.

The LGs are much cheaper.
 
#11 ·
Thanks 12345a. Will go for the 8 instead of 11.

Bob...I wish I wouldn't be. If you search on google you will find many other folks who posted similar estimates. It's a rip off. Ridiculous. Really...
So people recommend to buy the systems and just pay for installation. That's why I am here :wink:
 
#13 · (Edited)
3 days labor? Nah. I would expect a system complete with duct work to be cheaper than $23,000 and there is no duct work in minisplits and they are not complicated devices to install.

You would have to do a load calc to be sure but I would be stunned to hear a 1500sqft house needs 6 tons in 34 degree temperatures. I have 4 tons for a just a bit under 1500ft and it works fine at 34 degrees.

You can pick up a 3 head, 2.5 ton machine starting at about $1800 each.
http://www.alpinehomeair.com/viewcategory.cfm?categoryID=316

Warranties? They're good for maybe 20% savings if something goes wrong. In my book that makes them pretty useless.

$23,000 for a grossly oversize system which requires minimum install efforts? I wouldn't pay that in a million years.
 
#16 ·
#14 ·
Beenthere,

You can get the mitsu systems starting at 5.5k. I compred apples to apples and used the estimates to compare units to a retailer and eneded up at 8k. So 10k is outrageous IMO for installation, even with the added costs of lines and wires. Please correct me if I am wrong...

LG IMO is just as good as the mitsu and even has better SEER ratings. Warranty is 7 years vs 10, but well...for a few k less I'm willing to risk that
 
#15 · (Edited)
Money is the object for a lot of people but in my experience a GOOD long term reliable HVAC company has a vested interest in keeping you for a customer and may do better work than some Joe in a Pickup you find to slap it in. There are fine details like proper leaking checking of the freon lines and using a proper micron gauge to pull a vacuum on them with. That is time consuming and expensive. Joe is in it for a few quick $$ and that is it. Won't ever be back or could not care less about doing a proper vacuum etc. Why would he? In his eyes you are taking away some of his profit and $$ by buying it yourself so why should he care about moisture in your system. As a tradesman I would feel the same and would just do the minimum too. You do pay more but get a warranty. It can take several days if you have plaster walls etc as they cannot be damaged or he is on the hook. Nobody on the net has seen your job or can tell you how long it should take.
 
#18 ·
And price defines a good hvac tech from a bad one?

Again, mini splits are not complicated devices to install. Homeowners can indeed do most of the work themselves and have an hvac tech do the last minute checks/vacuuming if you wish. It's not rocket science. Here's one through with a concrete wall install.

 
#17 ·
Minis are very technical and fragile. They must be selected, sized, and installed per manufacturers instruction, by trained techs, or you'll be plagued by problems. We had a unit that was misinstalled last winter by a contractor with no training and who didn't follow instructions. The whole system had to get ripped out and replaced. The manufacturer did not warranty the problems, nor should they have as the problems were not their fault.
 
#25 · (Edited)
She is talking about getting it installed not doing it herself. Totally different topic.

Price does not decide a good contractor. Reputation, referals from friends, BBB report and doing research to find one does.

However men like women have feelings and can be snarky, catty, mean spirited, back stabbers etc. No contractor I know of wants to install a unit they did not sell as they can make more $$ with their own sales. In general a guy who will never see you again has no interest in doing more than the minimum. There is no Maytag man. That was Gordon Jump an actor. In the real world you will get a better job from a concerned contractor. Not to say there are not bad ones but in general it may be better to go with someone who cares about his reputation and wants to have a customer. Plus you get a warranty.

If Joe P (ickup guy) does not pull a proper 500 micron vacuum and you end up with moisture then it will ruin the unit. Now if Bob wants to tell you how to stand over his shoulder and watch him do every procedure that is fine by me.:wink2:

Licenses have nothing to do with quality of work.
 
#32 ·
No contractor I know of wants to install a unit they did not sell as they can make more $$ with their own sales.
Then that is a contractor which should be avoided.

Contractors are nothing more than tools people use to get the job done. As soon as your tool starts dictating the rules, then it's time to throw it away and buy a new one.... LOTS of them out there that don't come with this kind of ego. We hire LOTS of contractors and they play by OUR rules or they go find work someplace else. Now if we do supply the parts then we don't expect certain parts of a warranty to be honored by said contractor, but that's on us.

We have no room for contractors with ego issues or contractors who want to make huge amounts of money for nothing more than the mark up and the resale of parts. A contractor can be hired for install only or for both supply/install. There is no rule on the subject.
 
#27 ·
Do not go with the 8 instead of the 11, low temp capacity is a totally separate issue. Was just saying low temp capacity is more important than heating efficiency, they aren't correlated!
 
#28 ·
If Joe P (ickup guy) does not pull a proper 500 micron vacuum and you end up with moisture then it will ruin the unit. Now if Bob wants to tell you how to stand over his shoulder and watch him do every procedure that is fine by me.
In theory no one should have to do that, but it's often necessary these days to refrigeration work properly.

How many contractors use a micron gauge? How many flow nitrogen when brazing? How many actually monitor refrigerant line temps to actually see what's happening in the system vs just pressures?
 
#30 · (Edited)
How many Contractors doing proper installs.

How should I know. Everyone I know does. My company does. If we get a unit with an acid burnout 2-3 yrs later and have to charge the customer $600-$1000 labor to change the compressor and they go on the net at DIY chatroom and Yuri says they did not use a vacuum gauge they get suspicous we won't have that customer.

The real money is in keeping your customers and selling them maintenance contracts.
 
#37 · (Edited)
Few contractors care and if you're paying, it's important to make sure things are done right. The contractor installs and collects the money, then leaves. You're stuck with the result.

There are probably a few good contractor in hvac, most of them probably being old and near retirement back from a time when people actually had a passion for this stuff. (...lots of them are old who don't do it right)

Had a really old, experienced guy a long time ago, I didn't know it at the time, but did everything by the book, put all the readings on the invoice, really cared and was thorough. Would pull a blower, pull pilot assemblies to clean, oil motors etc without even being asked just as the standard thing on a maintenance.

I've also witnessed (not for me) a contractor with perfect reviews on every site, a+ BBB do the minimum to get the equipment running, doing stupid things like running a new thermostat cable with enough wires but not connecting the common, leaving the t-stat at factory default settings (6 cph on a properly sized 2-stage furnace), leaving the cooling fan speed set to 1500 cfm or so for a 2.5 ton a/c.

The reviews are great because homeowners don't know if a job is being done properly, just if it works, is neatly done, and if the salesperson/installers were nice.
 
#38 · (Edited)
Bob works for the Government of Manitoba. That is a whole other world than residential HVAC. The standards are different and some HVAC contractors like working for the Gov of MB as they pay on time and it is a good contract to have. Instead of whining complaining people who don't pay their bills, find prices on the net and want everything for nothing.

Point being I have worked with 1000's of tradesmen from HVAC guys, plumbers, electricians, elevator contractors, controls people etc etc and guys are pretty much the same. Alpha male types. There is no fuzzy bunny nicey nicey Maytag world of HVAC Pro's. Everyone is in it to make as much $$ in as short a time as possible. Why should I care about Girly's system when I know she is trying to circumvent the system and lessen my profit. Because I am some Maytag guy that does everything by the book. Seriously if you believe that I got some prime farmland near Thompson to sell you.

If you get a contractor who is self employed and has a good reputation from people you know or a good referal in general you stand a much better chance at getting the proper job done. Joe P has no interest other than money. Like I said it is a chance but your odds are better with a good referal contractor than some Dude who may have a bad attitude because of the money issue. Contactors hate the net and people getting prices on parts and units. Why would they not. That is just human nature.
 
#40 ·
The things you say are every customers' worst nightmares and the reason why customers always feels like they are getting ripped off. Because people like you simply do in fact rip them off. Your "squeeze every penny possible" tactics might have worked 10 years ago, but you will find that with yelp and google plus your business will decline over time. The net is full of costumers who write reviews and warn other customers about contractors like you. How do you think did I get the idea of buying the units and just pay for the installation? I read reviews of people online who received outrageous estimates from people like you. And it might be hard to believe, but the guy that will do my installation is happy with the 3k he will walk away with. Not because he has no other costumers. Oh no. In fact I have to wait because he is too busy right now. Nope. He is just cool with making honest and easy 3k. No rip off. No hidden fees. No selling outdated equipment for double the price. Some folks are simply fine with making good money in an honest way rather than making triple with deceit and lies.
 
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